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Human Weapon Kali Takedown Defense: Um what?

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    Human Weapon Kali Takedown Defense: Um what?

    So I was trying to find some Human Weapon clips on youtube, when I came across this one for a Kali takedown defense. All I could say is...uh...what?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTIrehTIGOA

    Gaje tries to explain it at the end of this clip too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEc64UOOU6Q

    So, like, am I missing something, or is this the crapple?

    Seriously, what is it with the double leg takedown that makes people want to demonstrate it so poorly?

    #2
    Yes, it's the crapple and it's going to be extremely difficult to pull off on a resisting opponent.

    Comment


      #3
      I never understood the stand and strike down principle or variations there of that some schools advocate, surely a human being launching himself at you is going to have alot more force then all that?

      Sprawl FTW I'm afraid.

      At a TKD seminar, whilst they were going over "grappling" I mentioned this, the response? "Have you seen the matadore against the bull?"...I'm still not sure exactly what he was implying.

      Best grapple defence = a red cloak and dancing out of the way?

      Comment


        #4
        Although, if someone were bold enough to try to shake your hand, you could make short work of them with that move.
        Originally posted by Cullion
        You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
        Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:

        Comment


          #5
          I'm gonna go out a limb and say that that is not teh crapple. No, that is not crappling at all.
          It is an extremely valid takedown defense when coupled with a sprawl. I had it done to be repeatedly in training today. It's not fun.
          Originally posted by Goju - joe
          being a dick with skill is only marginally better than being a dick without skill.

          Comment


            #6
            Might be an okay defense against a shoot, but I don't see it "crushing veterbrae" as the video claims.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by The Question
              I'm gonna go out a limb and say that that is not teh crapple. No, that is not crappling at all.
              It is an extremely valid takedown defense when coupled with a sprawl. I had it done to be repeatedly in training today. It's not fun.
              maybe if you dont know how to do a proper shoot, like shooting for the waist with your arms extended, then yeah, sure, it might work.

              Although, since you have worked with it, how do you stop your opponent from sliding the head to the outside of the elbow?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by T3hJudoChop

                Although, since you have worked with it, how do you stop your opponent from sliding the head to the outside of the elbow?
                Keep your weight on them and wrap your wrist around their head/neck. It's not easy to simply pull way.
                Originally posted by Goju - joe
                being a dick with skill is only marginally better than being a dick without skill.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by The Question
                  Keep your weight on them and wrap your wrist around their head/neck. It's not easy to simply pull way.
                  I'm trying to see what you are saying, but based on the examples provided by Gaje, at what point are you wrapping your wrist around their head/neck? One arm is holding one of the "shooting arms" out, and the other arm is occupied with pushing the head or neck down with the forearm.

                  Really, the biggest offense is that the opponent isn't even attempting a takedown. Not even a level change? Honestly, it just looks like an aggressive hug. When you practice this, do you honestly shoot for your opponent's waist?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by T3hJudoChop
                    Really, the biggest offense is that the opponent isn't even attempting a takedown. Not even a level change? Honestly, it just looks like an aggressive hug. When you practice this, do you honestly shoot for your opponent's waist?
                    While I agree that the defense shown is NOT crappling, it is also NOT a valid defense against a trained grappler. It IS a valid defense against someone untrained in the technical takedown. Much like pure grapplers won't have the best knife attacks, FMA people will not have the best shoot. The defense was developed by FMA folk against getting tackled by other FMA folk.

                    It's not inherently bullshit, but against a dedicated grappler, it's not going to work. It would be a last resort technique for me. After a sprawl. And a stab. And another stab. And for good measure, a slice.

                    Aloha, Poi

                    EDIT (11/28/07): It has since been proven I am the incorrect. To see why, go to post #25. D'oh!!
                    Last edited by poidog; 11/28/2007 8:12pm, . Reason: Retrograde suckitude.
                    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by PoiDog
                      While I agree that the defense shown is NOT crappling, it is also NOT a valid defense against a trained grappler. It IS a valid defense against someone untrained in the technical takedown. Much like pure grapplers won't have the best knife attacks, FMA people will not have the best shoot. The defense was developed by FMA folk against getting tackled by other FMA folk.

                      It's not inherently bullshit, but against a dedicated grappler, it's not going to work. It would be a last resort technique for me. After a sprawl. And a stab. And another stab. And for good measure, a slice.

                      Aloha, Poi
                      Sorry Poi, I don't buy that explanation. Gaje specifically mentions grapplers in his clip, even going so far as to say, that he is the one in control of the grappler who is going in for a takedown. He may be right about that part actually, since anyone who thinks a shot attacks the waist is already in trouble before they start.

                      Isn't takedown defense designed by people who don't normally do takedowns, or, at the very least, a double leg, a recipe for crappling?

                      We've heard it before: "X" grappling technique isn't designed for grapplers, but for untrained people. How good does that sound if we replace the term grappling with knife defense? "X" knife defense isn't designed for knife fighters, but for untrained people. It sounds even sillier.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        That was sort of ridiculous...
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                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by T3hJudoChop
                          Sorry Poi, I don't buy that explanation.
                          I think he's right within a certain domain. We've seen this sort of thing from many instructors now. They re-define "shoot" to mean "tackle" and then demonstrate a reasonable way of defending a lazy tackle. The instructors are also right that the tackles they're likely to encounter in the wild look more like what's in the above videos than what happens at a wrestling tournament, which makes it difficult to convince them to train against the more effective but somewhat rarer shoot.
                          do, but take refuge in theory and talk

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I think it's a valid defence against a lazy shoot. Which we see in all levels of fighting be it in the final round of a UFC bout or in Anthony vs Rudy or in a street fight.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by jackrusher
                              I think he's right within a certain domain. We've seen this sort of thing from many instructors now. They re-define "shoot" to mean "tackle" and then demonstrate a reasonable way of defending a lazy tackle. The instructors are also right that the tackles they're likely to encounter in the wild look more like what's in the above videos than what happens at a wrestling tournament, which makes it difficult to convince them to train against the more effective but somewhat rarer shoot.
                              My problem is Gaje's very specific use of the word "grappler". I doubt Gaje is a stranger to the term and what it implies. But, assuming this is for a tackle, and not a shoot, to the waist at a low enough speed for you to weave your arm the way he recommends, it doesnt take much experience to simply rotate your head to the outside of the elbow and forearm.

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