Wing Chun? hard style. Wing Tsun? softer than Aikido. Flipside? practically limp.

[It is Fake]

You're an idiot.
I know two people who have cracked their sternum during training from just one punch

The chest is probably one of the toughest areas in the body, but do you really think that if Tank Abbot or Chuck Liddell hit someone like Jim Carrey in the chest, it would do nothing?

you are thinking of conditioned fighters who are fighting each other in a tough environment who have built their chest up.

If you think that a punch to the chest will mess up your hand, you need more training

What were they doing when this happened?

[Flipside]

If this guy is such a monster why isn't he competing in UFC/K1/Abu Dhabi etc. instead of running a school?

Someone asked him, he said he would only fight for the life of his family or himself. It's a choice you make.

Also, Pancrase Freefighting? All style combat tournaments? I am having serious doubts as to the validity of all this. Proof plz?

It used to be on the website of a club where he used to teach. (It's in dutch: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=be)
I don't have a copy of his diploma certificate to post on this website, obviously, but if you want I can ask some references.

[wei-chi-student]

You're an idiot.
I know two people who have cracked their sternum during training from just one punch

The chest is probably one of the toughest areas in the body, but do you really think that if Tank Abbot or Chuck Liddell hit someone like Jim Carrey in the chest, it would do nothing?

you are thinking of conditioned fighters who are fighting each other in a tough environment who have built their chest up.

If you think that a punch to the chest will mess up your hand, you need more training

Did i get that right, you're training to beat up jim carrey?
seriously: A hook to the side of the chin, centerline or not? devastating or not? if you stand sideways to someone, hitting his shoulder would be hitting his centerline, right? (because his centerline is clearly behind his shoulder, right?)
please explain the differences (from a center-line point of view) of a hook to the liver and a hook to the shoulder.
if _ing _un can end fights with one punch (or at least a flurry of punches) why all this economy in motion stuff?
if the straight line is so superior, why do people SWING batons? why not just shove them into someones centerline? please elaborate (at least on the hook to liver/shoulder thingy)

[Vince Tortelli]

It used to be on the website of a club where he used to teach. (It's in dutch: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=be)

I would really like to see some references, not trying to be an asshole (well, maybe a little) but you must admit these claims sound slightly theatrical. Also, you said he was the greatest bare knuckle fighter you had ever seen, but you say he only fights to protect his life or his family. So when have you seen him demonstrate these great bare knuckle fighting skills? Wouldn't that involve, well, fighting?

[wei-chi-student]

And btw: i prefer to be hit on my nose (square) instead of beeing hit on my liver.

[Robot Jesus]

I train in Iron Liver.

[Tonuzaba]

Kamon Guy hurts.

Really badly.

To read.

[Flipside]

I would really like to see some references, not trying to be an asshole (well, maybe a little) but you must admit these claims sound slightly theatrical. Also, you said he was the greatest bare knuckle fighter you had ever seen, but you say he only fights to protect his life or his family. So when have you seen him demonstrate these great bare knuckle fighting skills? Wouldn't that involve, well, fighting?

I was talking about 2 people, don't mix them together. I will look for some references about Jan.
About Boehlig, I saw him do some sparring with 3th technicians and having a huge speed and control. I did some lat sao with him and didn't know what happend. It's just a personal oppinion, I'm not claiming he's the best, only the best I've seen (not counting movie(clip)s/internet, just personally saw).

[Tom Kagan]

This equation does not apply to Omega's anatomical structure.

Just because I find watching a guy take 12 (count'em: TWELVE) unanswered knees to the face while flipping the bird never really gets old:

Don't Hit
Omega
You might
make him mad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBoxX48_tAo

[wei-chi-student]

Kamon Guy hurts.

Really badly.

To read.

I feel your pain.

[Vince Tortelli]

Apologies if I misunderinterpestimated your posts. But if you dig up anything on the Style vs. Style stuff, please post it here.

[M1K3]

Vince, you have crossed the line by making a serious post in a chun thread without using the holy words "asshat", "moron" or "fucktard". You have place yourself in the middle of a theological battle for souls of all who worhsip the __un or other CMA orthodoxies. You are in grave danger unless you call out using one of the holy words. If not one day you will find yourself posting arguments about centerline theory and the correct way to do a tan sao. This is your only warning. May the goodness of the Gracies be upon you.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

Centre line is about the target, not how you hit the target.
If I am square on to my opponent, his chest (for example) is in his centre line. Therefore, if I hit it with a hook, a knee , uppercut, you are still obeying the centre line principle
If you hit the shoulder, you are not obeying it

I am extremely accustomed to centerline theory. As a fencer, the centerline (we call it the fatline) is the prime target area for a thrust. The reason for this is that the fatline hides the human vital organs, which are the most lethal points for a thrusting attack to strike.

Now, unless Chun's got an entirely different idea of the definition of the human centerline, the fatline runs from the forehead to the crotch, describing a straight line through the nose, sternum, solar plexus, and groin. Hooking shots to the kidneys, temples, or any other spot not falling on this described line do not fall on the centerline.

Now, if your definition of the centerline is so loose that it includes whatever happens to be in the geometrical center of your opponent as you view them, then the shoulder could very well fall along the centerline. For example, a traditional karate back stance with one arm fully chambered-- this would present a profile placing the should right down your malleable centerline. Obviously, a straight punch with no hip rotation to the shoulder is going to do next to nothing to most people, let alone a conditioned fighter. So your "most damage is dealt along the centerline" theory breaks down, here.

If your opponent is facing you square on, his chest is not the centerline. The center line of his chest is the centerline. His kidneys are not that much closer to this centerline than his shoulder.

Targets are viable because they will cause damage, not because they fall across the centerline. The neck is a better target than the kidneys, not because it falls on the centerline, but because the vital organs it conceals are closer to the surface and therefore more vulnerable. However, a punch to the sternum, which does fall along the centerline, is vastly inferior to a kidney punch, because that area of the chest is one of the most protected areas of the body. First, there's thick muscle. Then, there's one of the thickest bones in the body. Then, there's cartilage and ligament webwork which stabilize and reinforce that bone while connecting it to an entire cage of bone. On the other hand, the kidneys are protected a much thinner layer of muscle, making them easier to damage and a much better target area.

Now, of course, you can go ahead and try to make believe that all the best target areas of the human body fall along the centerline. You can even alter your definition of the centerline to try and include targets which it really doesn't cover. But the more you admit that such target areas are quite viable and damaging targets, the more you validate the idea that Wing Chun striking strives so much to be efficient that it actually becomes inefficient.


--Joe

[Axelton]

If this guy is such a monster why isn't he competing in UFC/K1/Abu Dhabi etc. instead of running a school?

Also, Pancrase Freefighting? All style combat tournaments? I am having serious doubts as to the validity of all this. Proof plz?

Vince do you ever have an original thought?

[Kintanon]

You're an idiot.
I know two people who have cracked their sternum during training from just one punch

The chest is probably one of the toughest areas in the body, but do you really think that if Tank Abbot or Chuck Liddell hit someone like Jim Carrey in the chest, it would do nothing?

you are thinking of conditioned fighters who are fighting each other in a tough environment who have built their chest up.

If you think that a punch to the chest will mess up your hand, you need more training

Ok, I've got 100$ that says you can't punch me in the sternum, full force, and make me go down.
I've been KICKED full force in the chest before by some pretty hefty folk and it hasn't resulted in any damage. The ONLY time I have ever seen anyone damage their sternum was some of the guys I knew who were wannabe powerlifters who seperated their sternum overloading the benchpress and being stupid. But I don't think your punch is going to generate 350lbs of lateral force, so I'm not worried.

To the best of my knowledge and so far as my research can determine there has never been an instance of a persons sternum being cracked by a punch. Every instance I could find recorded was from a car accident or building collapse.

So, where are you located? I'll see when I'm going to be travelling to your area to pick up my free 100$.