Wing Chun? hard style. Wing Tsun? softer than Aikido. Flipside? practically limp.

[Flipside]

Hello, Flipside.
Welcome to Bullshido.
So, do you consider joining the upcoming Dutch Bullshido Throwdown in February?

Maybe, yes, keep me informed.

Apparently, you haven't read your posts in this and the other thread it was culled from.

Can you tell me what a replie is?

A typo that I edited before you even replied.


To the rest, I thought of getting serious dicussion and interesting info, but this seems nothing more then bashing and arguing about the most irrelevant things I could think of. I have a constant feeling of conversating with either a 12 year old, or with some frustrated dumbass who has nothing better to do.
I won't post anymore until I get a mature reaction.

[Permalost]

I won't post anymore until I get a mature reaction.

Don't worry, that special hair'll start growing any year now.

[It is Fake]

Wing Chun is the old chinese style that Yip Man refined, as he became older and had less power, he realised that the style was more effective when practised softer and more relaxed.

You have any proof of this?

Yip Man's last student, Leung Ting, learned this softer version, refined and perfected it, and made his own system out of it: Wing Tsun. That's why Wing Chun is a hard MA, and Wing tsun is a soft MA (maybe even softer then Aikido).

Really? Soft versus hard hunh? What if I show you interviews refuting what you just said.

Leung Ting then teached it to GM Allan Fong who teached it to M Thommy Luke Boehlig. Alan Fong and Thommy Luke Boehlig founded Martial Arts International, and developed the Wing Tsjun system.

Really/ Or is it because he couldn't register the Wing Tsun name because someone else owns that name?

They changed the name again to differentiate with the wing tsun of Keith R. Kernspecht, also a pupil of Leung Ting, who has bought the rights of Wing Tsun from Leung Ting and, from what I heard, kept lots of "secrets" and refinements of the technics to his own.

Hearsay.



You want intelligent conversation? Get your myths straight. Wing Tsun, Wing Chun, Wing Tjun, Kamon Wing Chun, Ving Tsun and Moy Yat are basically the same. Yes, there are differences but not much.

It is like someone trying to argue that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is better than Machado JiuJitsu because, it was refined by Helio Gracie.

Well, 12 year olds tend to sulk off and feel sorry for themselves. You'll fit right in.

[SuperCollider]

Alan Orr's people do alright.

Similarly, they look like MMA fighters who claim _ing __un principles. You'd have people on both sides of the fence saying.

"But its not the real _ing __un!"

[Vince Tortelli]

.

It is like someone trying to argue that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is better than Machado JiuJitsu because, it was refined by Helio Gracie.
.

Actually that statement has been made several times in my hearing by Gracie JJ students and teachers. Makes me fearful for the future of my beloved art, will we see epic flamewars of BJJ vs. GJJ vs. MJJ vs 10th Planet JJ vs. the Lord only knows what else JJ and everyone is saying "I HUZ THE R34L JITZ!" and we all look like morons?

[It is Fake]

Actually that statement has been made several times in my hearing by Gracie JJ students and teachers. Makes me fearful for the future of my beloved art, will we see epic flamewars of BJJ vs. GJJ vs. MJJ vs 10th Planet JJ vs. the Lord only knows what else JJ and everyone is saying "I HUZ THE R34L JITZ!" and we all look like morons?

You know what? There is going to be some inter school rivalry. Jits is Jits. I've seen the whose better argument flame wars.

Those aren't in the realm of who created what, who has the real, or the linage bullshit breakdown in flappywappy's post.

[It is Fake]

Similarly, they look like MMA fighters who claim _ing __un principles. You'd have people on both sides of the fence saying.

"But its not the real _ing __un!"

It has already happened.

[Kamon Guy]

Ok I thought I'd troll on here lol...

Nah just kidding. Just thought I'd add my little pennies worth. The differences in name merely mean that they are taught under a different person. If I broke away from Kamon, I wouldn't call it kamon. But it would still be a wing chun system.

As far as I understand it, Leung Ting broke away from 'Original Wing Chun' and called it WT, so that people wouldn't think he was the same as Ip Chun, etc.
There is also the classic rumour that he didn't want the abbreviation WC to get confused with a public toilet!!!

There are differences across all the wing chun schools with regards to how people do forms, how they do chain punching, how they kick, how they incorperate other arts etc.

In Kamon, we deal with grapplers by learning and understanding grappling (even in a limited context). Other wing chun styles tend to use anti grappling.
In Kamon we tend to collapse structure. Other wing chun schools might not.

But at the core of all of them is the wing chun principles and same termonology and drills

[kwoww]

Actually that statement has been made several times in my hearing by Gracie JJ students and teachers. Makes me fearful for the future of my beloved art, will we see epic flamewars of BJJ vs. GJJ vs. MJJ vs 10th Planet JJ vs. the Lord only knows what else JJ and everyone is saying "I HUZ THE R34L JITZ!" and we all look like morons?

Even today the Gracies try to spout their "GJJ IZ COMPLEAT SYSTIM" bullshit. The difference between rival BJJ schools and rival _ing _un schools is that the JJ guys at least have some skill to back it up.

[Tonuzaba]

Actually that statement has been made several times in my hearing by Gracie JJ students and teachers. Makes me fearful for the future of my beloved art, will we see epic flamewars of BJJ vs. GJJ vs. MJJ vs 10th Planet JJ vs. the Lord only knows what else JJ and everyone is saying "I HUZ THE R34L JITZ!" and we all look like morons?

Just by posting in the same thread with any chunner you get infected. You all already got infected. JJ and all other arts better get prepared, your own personal lineage wars are coming!!! :XXchicken

[Kung-Fu Joe]

Just by posting in the same thread with any chunner you get infected. You all already got infected. JJ and all other arts better get prepared, your own personal lineage wars are coming!!! :XXchicken

Hasn't this already been occurring in the Japanese and Okinawan systems for a few centuries? Isn't it pretty much the destined fate of any two similarly descended systems of martial arts? Hell, any two systems of MA, period?

Hell, I'd put money on the fact that there's guys claiming to have the real Yellow Bamboo, taught by an insane recluse poet in the Mariana Trench, and that all other Yellow Bamboo is watered down.

--Joe

[Flipside]

Really? Soft versus hard hunh? What if I show you interviews refuting what you just said.

Please do.

Really/ Or is it because he couldn't register the Wing Tsun name because someone else owns that name?

Could be, I'm not omniscient

You want intelligent conversation? Get your myths straight. Wing Tsun, Wing Chun, Wing Tjun, Kamon Wing Chun, Ving Tsun and Moy Yat are basically the same. Yes, there are differences but not much.

I agree that there is not a huge difference between Wing Tsun and Wing Tsjun. The difference with Wing Chun is bigger, but indeed it has the same base. I have heard of other _ing _un styles, but I don't know enough about it those to give comments.

It is like someone trying to argue that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is better than Machado JiuJitsu because, it was refined by Helio Gracie.

I never said which one is better, just pointed out that there is a difference.

Well, 12 year olds tend to sulk off and feel sorry for themselves. You'll fit right in.

Don't worry, I don't feel sorry for myself. I just don't want to waste my time with this bashing contest.

[Tom Kagan]

As far as I understand it, Leung Ting broke away from 'Original Wing Chun' and called it WT, so that people wouldn't think he was the same as Ip Chun, etc.
There is also the classic rumour that he didn't want the abbreviation WC to get confused with a public toilet!!!

It doesn't particularly help that his choice, "WT", meant "Waste Time" in Hong Kong, either.

[Necroth]

Centerline Theory, Forms & Wooden Dummy work, and Chi Sao are what makes every WC/VT/WT essentially the same, although they may have minor differences. ITF, WTF, whateverthefuck TKD, all pretty much the same, with minor differences. Yoshinkan, Shodokan, TreehuggingCrystalshardwearingKisociety Aikido, all the same, with minor differences. You might note, though, that all of the aforementioned have "lineage" and "system" wars from time-to-time about who has teh r34l system and who has teh f4k3. And they all pretty much suck, IMO. All are based on principles that make them fail as useful, alive systems. All practiced with compliancy and rarely with full contact. All hold forms as some holy grail of fight preparation.

You want an intelligent discussion on WC, then admit it's faults. If you think slapping a hundred times in a row will really put down a determined attacker, that's fault one. The chain punches with no hip rotation and no shoulder rotation simply don't produce enough power to affect a trained opponent.

If you think trapping range is so important that you practice chi sao for half of your training time and use it as an example of how effective your art is, that's fault 2. Trapping range is a split second range in most fights and should not warrant the hours of chi sao at that distance. The more useful ranges of punch, kick, and clinch would be so much better to train in, since they are not transitional like trapping.

I could easily coutinue with the faults of _ing _un, but why? These two alone account for nearly 100% of _ing _un supporter's claims of superiority, so debunking these ideals is tantamount to debunking 99.99% of the theories in _ing _un. And these have been debunked time and again.

[M1K3]

I read someplace that there are only 2 ranges. Fighting and not fighting. All the rest is just differences in technique. That and _ing __un sucks so bad that even the mighty Phil Elmore, scourge of the homeless, gave it up as useless.

:phil2: