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**Virus** · 10/07/2007 4:30am,

Dude's got some mad chum kiu skillz.

Chum at dictionary.com:

Seems like a fitting name for the wing chun.

**Kamon Guy** · 10/08/2007 8:36am,

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

Not sure if it was more widely practiced than just the Founder, but it is a well-known fact that Mas Oyama fought with bulls in order to demonstrate the power of Kyokushin Karate. The picture next to the MABS forum on the forum index page is one of those fights.

And that is why I still love karate, despite it being a clash with wing chun

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

I would certainly say that any punch launched from a position 6 to 18 inches in front of the chest with minimal hip and shoulder rotation will produce far less power than a fully chambered, fully rotated tsuki. That's simple physics.

I think you are imagining a wing chun hit done from a small distance. This was a circle step drill involving a lot of torque and built up power. As I said, I would rather take a hit from my old kyokishinkai instructor than Kevin Chan. That is just personal opinion and has probably more to do with the person than the art.

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

It's possible things are different where you're from. Where I live, even street punks with no martial arts training know enough to protect their centerline. As soon as a fight starts, the off-hand shoulder pulls forward, the main-hand pulls back, and the hands come up to block the face when not punching. Even without training, most Jersey kids will try and emulate what they've seen in boxing.

Almost every fight I have had starts with the whol 'wide boy position' which is a punk spreading his hands outstretched, clashing chests with you etc. They tend to always leave the centre line open. Fights in the street never start with someone coming up to you and going straight into a martial arts stance! (Well I have never seen it so far)
My advice for people is to try and get hold of CCTV footage outside clubs or fooball hooligan fights. I watch it everyday and it is amazing to see that even people with martial arts training tend to never use it in a fight!!
But as you say, different cultures/countries have different fights
My favourite ever clip was the Dennis Pennis (aka Paul Kaye) comic relief clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSBSzCJPLfo
This is the British mentality...

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

...but you would more easily be KO'ed by a strike to the temple. Not only is the forehead a thick, strong bone, but the muscles which provide forward/backward motion and stability are much stronger than those which control lateral yaw. Generally, it's not the punch, itself, that causes a knockout in a fight. It's the sudden, sharp acceleration of the head combined with an equally sudden stop. This sort of motion in the head is best protected along the centerline, and least protected at the temples.

I'll concede this definatley. But remember that if you changed angles, you would be striking the temple whilst still attacking the centre line!

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

Yes, a strike to the face is certainly a valid target. Yes, it can potentially deal damage. But the point that we were trying to bring up is that centerline theory alleges that the MOST damage can be done along the centerline, and this is obviously not the case when it comes to unarmed strikes to the head or chest.

I don't agree that the most damage can be done down this line - people have mentioned the arteries which if hit can cause problems, or the kidneys. But they are fairly hard to hit.

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

I'd say these are all good improvements to traditional Chun training. I still have reservations about any chain punching, but I'd like to see it in action in live-sparring.

The nature of chain punching (linear movement) means that is pretty rubbish in a spar
The fact that you are charging forward with a flurry of attacks is a gamble and most of the time useless. For me, chain punching is more about exercise (training hand/arm speed and stance). When Kamon do use chain punching, they are more controlled bursts of three perhaps four punches. If you develop a hard hit (or weigh more like me) then you can use these in ground and pound and they tend to be fairly effective

Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe

That's absolutely understandable. A good friend of mine, growing up, was a Greco-Roman Wrestler. He happened to be blind, but he was skilled as a wrestler due to his heightened sense of touch. His senior year of High School, he had a 28-4 record, and he won the district championship. That led him to a nice scholarship for college, as well.

It makes absolute sense that training that sort of sensitivity would help in grappling of all sorts.
--Joe[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I'm not suggesting that you should take up wing chun just to help your BJJ, but one of the gifts from this art is a degree of sensitivity and ability to move round hands

I understand wing chun is getting a bad rep on here and that's a shame.
Elements of wing chun are crap, that's a fact of life, but I could pick apart any art practised in this age.

The lack of videos of wing chun in action doesn't help, but I would say to people on here - get down to a wing chun class and watch.

I still go to different martial arts in London and watch styles. Some are dreadful and some are fantastic. There shouldn't be a 'that art is rubbish' or 'that art is good' category.

**Tom Kagan** · 10/08/2007 5:30pm,

Originally posted by Kamon Guy

There shouldn't be a 'that art is rubbish' or 'that art is good' category.

I think people who believe what you just said have not had enough fun made of them and their art.

**Tonuzaba** · 10/09/2007 3:37am,

Luckily, they've come to the right place.

**Kamon Guy** · 10/09/2007 5:34am,

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

I think people who believe what you just said have not had enough fun made of them and their art.

Nothing wrong with people making fun of an art. Some of the stances in wing chun look hilarious. What I am saying is that you can have a rubbish BJJ practitioner, but it doesn't mean that BJJ is rubbish.

Kevin Chan as a wing chun fighter is certainly not crap and that has been backed up countless times (just look at our website under 'testimonials')

And there are more wing chunners who are very good. All I am asking is that when people post something about wing chun, don't automatically assume it is crap.

**FickleFingerOfFate** · 10/09/2007 5:42am,

Originally posted by Kamon Guy

Nothing wrong with people making fun of an art. Some of the stances in wing chun look hilarious. What I am saying is that you can have a rubbish BJJ practitioner, but it doesn't mean that BJJ is rubbish.

Kevin Chan as a wing chun fighter is certainly not crap and that has been backed up countless times (just look at our website under 'testimonials')

And there are more wing chunners who are very good. All I am asking is that when people post something about wing chun, don't automatically assume it is crap.

In this space list the _ing _un Practitioners who have won titles in mixed competition:

In this space list the BJJ Practitioners who have won titles in mixed competition:

You may turn the paper over if you need more space.

**Tom Kagan** · 10/09/2007 6:11am,

Originally posted by Kamon Guy

And there are more wing chunners who are very good. All I am asking is that when people post something about wing chun, don't automatically assume it is crap.

I don't think people who hold the above view on any style have been made fun of enough yet.

:smile:

**Virus** · 10/09/2007 7:00am,

Originally posted by Tom Kagan

I think people who believe what you just said have not had enough fun made of them and their art.

Please give them a number and send them to me.

Some of the stances in wing chun look hilarious.

Correction. They don't look hillarious, they are hillarious. And it isn't just some of the stances, it's all of the stances.

What I am saying is that you can have a rubbish BJJ practitioner, but it doesn't mean that BJJ is rubbish.

If the overwhelming bulk of BJJ practitioners were rubbish, then yes that would mean that BJJ is rubbish. But that isn't true. BJJ is immersed in the culture of performance. It's a legitimate and established sport that requires the shit to actually work. You can't even remotely compare it to the culture of wing chum.

Kevin Chan as a wing chun fighter is certainly not crap and that has been backed up countless times (just look at our website under 'testimonials')

Please read my testimonials:

"Virus pretty much always says things that are true. I don't think he's ever been wrong."

- Some guy.

"He's a pretty awesome fighter as well. He taught me the real street deadly that has helped me in countless situations."

- Some guy I met at a bus stop.

"He has a real time machine. He doesn't tell many people about it but he went back in time once and took a peek at the real shaolin monks training. He said kung fu used to suck back then as well."

- Some guy that I showed my time machine too.

"He has magic powers."

- Some guy who was talking about someone else, but could easily have been talking about me.

And there are more wing chunners who are very good. All I am asking is that when people post something about wing chun, don't automatically assume it is crap.

It's just that almost every chunner that appears on video is crap.

**Tom .C** · 10/09/2007 7:04am,

I think all Kamon is trying to say is "Please God, don't let this have been a waste."

**RunningDog** · 10/09/2007 9:21am,

Originally posted by Kamon Guy

Almost every fight I have had starts with the whol 'wide boy position' which is a punk spreading his hands outstretched, clashing chests with you etc. They tend to always leave the centre line open.

Oh the centreline's open? great. Their chin's also open for a hook, and they can be dumped on their heads promptly. But that would be too easy wouldn't it? you have to deliver the 350lb chainpunch of death.

My advice for people is to try and get hold of CCTV footage outside clubs or fooball hooligan fights. I watch it everyday and it is amazing to see that even people with martial arts training tend to never use it in a fight!!

You are one of those people it would seem.

But as you say, different cultures/countries have different fights

Ah I get it. chainpunches of doom only work in the UK. I must get back to the chun!

If you develop a hard hit (or weigh more like me) then you can use these in ground and pound and they tend to be fairly effective

It has been established through the Empirical Method what punches are effective in GnP, and chainpunches are not it.

Exactly. I'm not suggesting that you should take up wing chun just to help your BJJ, but one of the gifts from this art is a degree of sensitivity and ability to move round hands

You should not take up Wing Chun for any reason.

I understand wing chun is getting a bad rep on here and that's a shame.

On the contrary, it gets exactly what it deserves, and it is just. Please not that the most vocal critics of the chun are all ex-chunners. No they did not do the wrong wing chun, and I know you just thought that. Please replace that thought with this one: "I am a mug and I must quit wing chun immediately"

The lack of videos of wing chun in action doesn't help, but I would say to people on here - get down to a wing chun class and watch.

I've seen a Kevin Chan demo in chiswick. Looked like the same old wing chun bollocks to me. "Do you see what's occurring?"

**Kamon Guy** · 10/09/2007 9:51am,