ATTN: Veteran Posters - Help Me Out

[Tangent]

Attention, all you veteran posters! All you who are so tired of the same arguments! So tired of giving the same responses over and over again! Hear me!....

...and give those responses again.

I'm hoping that some of the veteran posters on here can help me out with discussing martial arts with a friend of mine. I work with a guy who is into and trains in various styles of martial arts, though right now I don't know any specifics. I'm hoping to awaken him, but I know there are people on these forums who can do that a lot more quickly and efficiently than I can. He has never heard of Bullshido before, as far as I know.

So here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to post this, and tomorrow at work I'm going to direct him to this site and thread, have him register (if he wants to), and start posting here (beginning with an introduction - yes, I know those are supposed to go in Newbietown). Once he registers and posts an introduction, I'll let him espouse a few beliefs, and let the debate rage on. I'll be very upfront about my goal: I'm hoping that some of you will be able to present these good arguments better than I can.

As a caveat, this debate WILL be the same thing you've all seen before. Among the things that I garnered from our debate earlier are that he believes the eye gouge to be an effective street-defense technique, he practices knife defenses, he really likes Bruce Lee, he agrees that size is an advantage but says that it is only a "circumstantial" advantage (meaning that there are circumstances in which size is actually a disadvantage), and I'm pretty sure he trains or has trained in Dim Mak. I'm not saying anything about these things, I'm just trying to give you all an idea of what the discussion will be like before it starts. If I'm wrong about any of these things, I'm sure he will correct me, and I'll apologize for being mistaken.

So, if a Mod doesn't like this or something, then that's cool, whatever. I know search function noob and all that, but he will be brand new to the site, and I thought this might be a way to initiate him and let some of the bored vets get a good debate in.

Thanks in advance!

[MEGA JESUS-SAMA]

Is he cute?

[Zub-Zub]

Wow, you're actually lining up fresh meat to the grinder. Omega will be pleased.......

[Ke?poFist]

This isn't going to end well.

[Ke?poFist]

Anyway, sub-debates that I will try to nip in the bud.

- Street vs Sport
- Alive vs Dead training
- Use of dirty tactics

These articles will hopefully clear a lot of them up

Training to Fight / The Myth of Self Defense

Tired Debate

by Matt Thornton

Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website

Subject: tired debate

I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.

Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).

You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.

Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.

Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco.

My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.

In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.

Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain that's involved in earning that strong base.
continued. . . . .

I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.

In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think that's fine. But that's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand.

A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.

Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They are part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cuting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.

This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them.

[Tangent]

Well, it looks like my friend won't be joining Bullshido today. He knows about it and has had plenty of time to hop in, but I guess he has decided not to. Maybe he will on Monday, but I'm not sure if he's interested. Hopefully he is, and hopefully he decides to come play. Sorry for jumping the gun.

If he doesn't end up wanting to come here, then I will end up using this thread as a vehicle for some of the things that we talk about at work, so that I can see all of those arguments presented in one place (this thread) concisely.

One of the things that was brought up yesterday was that training for MMA competitions is not as effective for self-defense as training specifically for teh street. An example that was given was being punched in the back of the head. In the UFC, the fighters don't have to worry about that, but on teh street, they do. In my opinion, you can't really train really d34dly techniques like that, because you can't ever actually DO them since you don't want to kill your opponent. Since you never actually do them, only pretend, it doesn't make you any better at actually doing them than someone who doesn't train them, and consequently has also never done them. Also, someone said that UFC fighters would react how they train, which is namely not defending themselves against strikes to the back of the head - and so, not training it puts them at a disadvantage against someone who isn't working underneath ingrained rules.

I read those two articles just now, KempoFist, and they're good. I've got a question about Escrima. Has anyone ever seen a highly trained Escrimador fight with a knife against a resisting opponent? I haven't, and though I'm not a morbid guy, I would like to see what happens. Anyone have any anecdotes?

[Askari]

I read those two articles just now, KempoFist, and they're good. I've got a question about Escrima. Has anyone ever seen a highly trained Escrimador fight with a knife against a resisting opponent? I haven't, and though I'm not a morbid guy, I would like to see what happens. Anyone have any anecdotes?

There was a video out there, I think it was called "Surviving Edged Weapons" but I am not sure as it has been at least a decade since I saw it. During the video there is some footage from a police simulation where they used Dan Inosanto as the subject to be arrested (And didnt warn the cops). The simulation ended badly for the cops.

[polishillusion]

Dude, you are attempting to have a serious discussion on Bullshido - your first and fatal mistake. It is not your job to change your friend to "the light side", since he will turn what he knows into crap if you force anything on him anyway. Discuss the concepts, ideals and facts about "alive training" and if he does as much MA as you say he does, he will understand and agree, and if he is a LARPER then he will just be one until someone kicks his ass.

[Omega Supreme]

*snif..snif....

[Tangent]

Nah, its not like that. I'm not specifically trying to change his mind, I'm just trying to introduce him to a venue where he can talk about a lot of the stuff that he thinks, and not be coddled like they'll do to him on MAP.

I'm... sorry, Omega. I'm... so sorry....

[RunningDog]

Dude, you are attempting to have a serious discussion on Bullshido - your first and fatal mistake. It is not your job to change your friend to "the light side", since he will turn what he knows into crap if you force anything on him anyway. Discuss the concepts, ideals and facts about "alive training" and if he does as much MA as you say he does, he will understand and agree, and if he is a LARPER then he will just be one until someone kicks his ass.

Ban plz

reason: avatar too big

[M1K3]

Dude, work some knife disarms with him. Have him put on an old white tee shirt. You get one of those dry erase red markers, this is your knife. Have him try his techniques on you and then play 'count the stitches'. Lets say 5 stitches per inch of red marker on his arms or shirt. Point out that even one cut like that can cause shock.

Also if you can get him to log on, point him to any thread by ggboxer and say, do you want to end up like this?. If that doesn't work then there is no hope.

[Tangent]

Also if you can get him to log on, point him to any thread by ggboxer and say, do you want to end up like this?. If that doesn't work then there is no hope.

Hahaha, yeah, that would probably work...

[It is Fake]

Dude, you are attempting to have a serious discussion on Bullshido - your first and fatal mistake. It is not your job to change your friend to "the light side", since he will turn what he knows into crap if you force anything on him anyway. Discuss the concepts, ideals and facts about "alive training" and if he does as much MA as you say he does, he will understand and agree, and if he is a LARPER then he will just be one until someone kicks his ass.

Please ignore 99% of what this guy says. Even if you were trying to change his mind so what.
Don't get me started on Mr. I take the internet way serious.

There have been serious discussions here many.

[polishillusion]

Please ignore 99% of what this guy says. Even if you were trying to change his mind so what.
Don't get me started on Mr. I take the internet way serious.

There have been serious discussions here many.

LOL

Is there a 1% that I forgot to shit out of my mouth? Oops. Most people will not change another persons belief system with a thread on the internet. It is obviously very serious business.