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**Virus** · 7/25/2007 4:07pm,

What about lots of videos of small BJJ guy vs bigger opponents from other styles. You think that doesn't indicate something about the style?

Styles do matter. There are superior and inferior styles. If it was all about the individual and the style didn't matter the UFC would still be pitting Sumo wrestlers vs White Crane guys. Why hasn't anyone come along and used Aikido or Japanese jujitsu in a submission grappling tournament? If it's all about the individual then why not?

And Bruce Lee would get his ass kicked by even a mid level modern MMAist.

**Matt W.** · 7/25/2007 4:21pm,

but I think the bottomline on effective martial arts/combatives is fitness level, mindset, and knowing how to punch and kick, Period.

Check.

Wrestling skills never hurt.

Understated, but... check.

Also, unless you are Bruce Lee (who was probably the most genetically gifted martial artist who ever lived) SIZE does matter.

Check.

I say this b/c the style vs. style videos are more about the individuals than the actual styles.

Okay, here's the thing. Yes, each individual fight is more about the fighters than the style. HOWEVER, as you begin to look at multiple fights between people of various styles, patterns start to emerge. It is these patterns that then allow us to make some general judgements about a style.

Since you are new, here's an accepted axiom around here: Individual > Training Methodology > Style However, all three play a part in the outcome of a fight.

**mark123** · 7/25/2007 4:29pm,

If it was all about the individual and the style didn't matter the UFC would still be pitting Sumo wrestlers vs White Crane guys.

Again, I say respectfully you are talking about sports martial arts, between highly trained or gifted athletes. I'm talking about as an effective combative for the masses.

**Cuchulain** · 7/25/2007 4:41pm,

Just to nitpick. Bruce Lee was not genetically gifted at all, in fact quite the opposite. He just worked very hard.

**artard** · 7/25/2007 4:45pm,

Originally posted by mark123

Again, I say respectfully you are talking about sports martial arts, between highly trained or gifted athletes. I'm talking about as an effective combative for the masses.

so then how do you determine what "effective combat" is, if not in the ring?

**Teh El Macho** · 7/25/2007 4:48pm,

in teh str33t :biblethum:

**Tango M.F.** · 7/25/2007 4:55pm,

See, in most online political discussions there exists something called Godwin's Law, which basically states that in any interweb forum, the chances of someone being compared to Hilter or the Nazi's increases with thread length.

Bullshido.net , and martial arts discussion in general, seems to have a "Law of Lee" where practitioners spend more time talking about Bruce Lee and less about normal human beings who may even still be alive/relevant.

Sorry, but I liked Tao of Jeet Kun Do as much as the next guy, but it had to be said.

**kikkuchiyo** · 7/25/2007 4:59pm,

Welcome mark123,hope you enjoy the forums. Since you just got here, I'm gonna toss a few bullshido videos at ye; they're my favorite part of the site.

Originally posted by mark123

the style vs. style videos are more about the individuals than the actual styles. Karate vs. Drunken Monkey-karate guy outweighs him by about 40 lbs-no brainer. Wing Chun vs. Systema-two fat guys pushing each other around...etc...

True in some cases, but not all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RnvaBMlNpI

Originally posted by mark123

And the only way to equalize that is an incredible amount of skill sets, or knowing how to fight dirty, and I mean ruthlessly dirty.

Hell yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0_svVIDORQ

Originally posted by mark 123

It's one thing to have 2 super athletes squaring off in a ring, I've always felt the ultimate martial art/system would be effective even for a 90 lb. woman.

Chezch out the Sambo chicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_UXpgOZ9eo

**Sophist** · 7/25/2007 5:01pm,

Originally posted by mark123

Again, I say respectfully you are talking about sports martial arts, between highly trained or gifted athletes. I'm talking about as an effective combative for the masses.

Well, here's the kicker: any training which is intense enough to noticeably increase your probability of prevailing in a fight against someone who is, say, twenty percent heavier and stronger than you are and is equally motivated will result in an increase in athleticism. Fighting is one of the most demanding physical activities you can partake in, and the best proponents of any system that is at all efficacious will be in top physical shape because their training has made them that way. There is no combative for the masses that allows you to significantly improve your fighting skills without improving your physical condition, because you have to embark on training activity sufficiently close to the target activity - fighting - to gain any sort of useful skill in that field.

**ojgsxr6** · 7/25/2007 5:04pm,

mark123, is this not the easiest board to troll ever? All you had to do is mention the "street" and Bruce Lee, and you'll probably have a 20 page thread. Trolling Bullshido has to be like shooting fish in a barrel or some other analogy.

**Axelton** · 7/25/2007 5:21pm,

Originally posted by mark123

Also, unless you are Bruce Lee (who was probably the most genetically gifted martial artist who ever lived) SIZE does matter

Suuuuure he was...

**Ecks** · 7/25/2007 6:16pm,

Bruce Lee had one undescended testicle. That pretty much excludes him from being genetically gifted.

**Virus** · 7/25/2007 9:11pm,

So only athletes can make bjj, boxing and mma work while for everyone else aikido and _ing _un is ideal?

Royce Gracie in the early UFC was hardly athletic by a long shot.

**Squerlli** · 7/25/2007 10:08pm,

Originally posted by Virus

So only athletes can make bjj, boxing and mma work while for everyone else aikido and _ing _un is ideal?

Royce Gracie in the early UFC was hardly athletic by a long shot.

*GASP!*
Blasphemy! :flipando:

OK sorry I had to do that before someone else did...

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