Defending the Bujinkan: Why is it singled out?

[GBLS]

You know I, I'm a n00b here and kinda came along here hoping, I suppose, to find a rational discussion debunking fraudulent practitioners that are dangerous or encouraging bad behaviour, discussions of technical flaws and encouraging those whose techniques have merit. That would be helpful if I decided to start training again. Instead I find that the Bullshit in Bullshido is here in the forums.

Most Forum posts consist of nothing but unconstructive criticism, prejudice and hatred.

There are many examples of this. One case in point is Bujinkan. So what that some Japanese guy made it up or based it on an old book or learned it from some dead japanese guy. Does it matter?

No one here calls Kendo, and BJJ and Aikido "fake" martial arts. In fact, based on the criticism I have seen about Bujinkan - BJJ, Kendo and Aikido are complete fakes - invented recently, has no real practical use except for UFC bouts or tournaments. And definitely not military combat tested. Not really much of a martial arts and yet people raise BJJ as an example of a real martial art against Bujinkan or even Karate (apparently some japanese guy in okinawa just invented that fake martial art too!). So weird.

For the record I did do Bujinkan. For fun. For my life. My lung transplant left me as weak as a kitten and after 1 year of Bujinkan training I was superfit - well ok I could stand up without falling over :) . It was an excellent experience for me. But alas, I have had medical complications that have prevented my attendance. If that makes you think less of me then that is your own prejudice - move to a different topic - dont bother posting.

In the year or so I learned use and attack swords, two swords, knives, bo, han-bo, every form of punch possible, how to fight 1, 2 and 3 people at once, and improvisation. We trained to the point of pain and in 35 degree celcius heat with 99% humidity and 10 degree celcius conditions. Some of the guys were bouncers and police officers that regularly used their skills in combat against other martial arts and non-martial arts combatants. And that was good enough for me. I wore a belt of my appropriate rank only when I was asked to very politely after refusing to relinquish my white belt after several gradings.

This experience was contrasted significantly when I moved interstate and changed dojos to be confronted with mats, no improvisation, no multiple combat, and a softly softly approach. Different instructor - different rules. To be honest I didn't enjoy it as much as the hard workout I got in my previous dojo but I was faced with little choice.

My experiences with other martial arts was - to say the lest - disappointing. Most of the instructors were bullys and thugs. I was 32 - post transplant - I wasn't looking to play silly games like wasting 20 minutes doing pushups on my dime. One instructor told us that we had to request permission to not attend a training session. What a jerk!

If I have just described your instructor then I suggest you change dojos immediately.

For a site that claims to remove the bullshit from martial arts all I can see are the bullies and thugs piling bullshit on other martial arts and only a rare glimpse of true martial artists.

What is really sad to see is that martial artists are having armchair battles over which is a good martial art or not based - not on experience - but on their beliefs and prejudices.

Almost Four hundred Years ago Miyamoto Musashi said in his book of Wind that "In strategy you must know the Ways of other schools". This means actually being openminded enough to attend classes and learn the moves. I see none of that here. I see insular minds arguing that their martial art is better than <insert name>.

While in the Wind book Musashi does criticise other martial arts but not by name - by technique. This allows the reader to recognise the technique without bogging down into whether it is *blah* or *blag* martial art or not.

To be honest I don't know if Bujinkan, BJJ or Karate is a real martial art or not. And I don't really care. I know I had fun and it helped me at the time.

I am sure that the less desirable elements will call me all names under the sun and scoff in derisive laughter but then again I have been cut in half and lived. I have seen and felt true horrors in my life that would give you nightmares. So I really don't care. But if you do decide to post please ensure you point out the bits where my opinion of the martial art I enjoyed was wrong.

I do have a message to Bujinkan practitioners, though. Stop trying to justify the origin of the martial art on internet forums. Even if Hatsumi comes out with an amazing piece of evidence linking him personally to Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu none of these people will believe it, so give up.

With the right teacher it is a good martial art. It is equal to BJJ, Kendo, Karate, Kung Fu and Tae Kwon do. They all have their place. What matters is the attitude of the teachers and students.

My question to those who dont TLDR is: has Martial Arts losing its substance and become just another religious debate - a debate where one is not allowed an opinion? Many martial arts have changed significantly over the last 50 years, why?. Is the introduction of the belt system - particularly the black belt poisoning our arts?


Flame away.
TC

[Munacra]

Most Forum posts consist of nothing but unconstructive criticism, prejudice and hatred.

Please link the offending posts. That claim needs some hard evidence. I think it will be harder to prove than you think.

Well, the hatred part yeah, I'm pretty sure it's everywhere, but that's the best part!

[Asriel]

The reason the Booj is slated has nothing to do with someone making it up. All Martial Arts have been made up at some point. In general, they do not practice against resisting opponents, leaving the 'over the top' techniques unpracticed in a realistic way.

[HonkyTonkMan]

You know I, I'm a n00b here and kinda came along here hoping, I suppose, to find a rational discussion debunking fraudulent practitioners that are dangerous or encouraging bad behaviour, discussions of technical flaws and encouraging those whose techniques have merit. That would be helpful if I decided to start training again. Instead I find that the Bullshit in Bullshido is here in the forums.

The things you are looking for are in MABS. Most of the offensive stuff is in YMAS, a forum MADE for offensive banter.
Of course , it seems that you arent looking for BS answers, but more of some type of validation for your training. Sorry, you came to the wrong place.

Most Forum posts consist of nothing but unconstructive criticism, prejudice and hatred.

Welcome to life outside the Bunjikan. Many of its detractors have participated in it and see its flaws. Others see the BS that ninjas put out and laugh.

There are many examples of this. One case in point is Bujinkan. So what that some Japanese guy made it up or based it on an old book or learned it from some dead japanese guy. Does it matter?

No it doesnt matter. What does matter is when someone claims that they can kink your brainstem, palm heel you in the chin and kill you, or drive your nose bone into your brain for an instant death type of blow.
What does matter is when someone claims the can read your thoughts, turn invisible, walk on water, climb walls with their bare hands, and other such nonsense.
Shit, that the Booj is FAMOUS for.

No one here calls Kendo, and BJJ and Aikido "fake" martial arts. In fact, based on the criticism I have seen about Bujinkan - BJJ, Kendo and Aikido are complete fakes - invented recently, has no real practical use except for UFC bouts or tournaments. And definitely not military combat tested. Not really much of a martial arts and yet people raise BJJ as an example of a real martial art against Bujinkan or even Karate (apparently some japanese guy in okinawa just invented that fake martial art too!). So weird.

Actually, Aikido is regularly bashed here because of its unrealistic training methods. BJJ isnt for the UFC, or such things. Its a viable form of training that is highly regarded for its training methodology. Is its nuts ridden kind of hard around here? Yes.
As for Military and Combat tested. Not true. BJJ techniques have been incorporated into the MCMAP program, and the Japanese have taught Karate to their police forces for years. Why? Because when trained properly it works.

For the record I did do Bujinkan. For fun. For my life. My lung transplant left me as weak as a kitten and after 1 year of Bujinkan training I was superfit - well ok I could stand up without falling over :) . It was an excellent experience for me. But alas, I have had medical complications that have prevented my attendance. If that makes you think less of me then that is your own prejudice - move to a different topic - dont bother posting.

Boo Hoo. If you came here looking for sympathy and a hug, then go to MAP.

In the year or so I learned use and attack swords, two swords, knives, bo, han-bo, every form of punch possible, how to fight 1, 2 and 3 people at once, and improvisation. We trained to the point of pain and in 35 degree celcius heat with 99% humidity and 10 degree celcius conditions. Some of the guys were bouncers and police officers that regularly used their skills in combat against other martial arts and non-martial arts combatants. And that was good enough for me. I wore a belt of my appropriate rank only when I was asked to very politely after refusing to relinquish my white belt after several gradings.

The above post part, is EXACTLY WHY people rag on BJK here. None of this is verifiable. Therefore, its a waste of bandwidth.
Plus, please come to a throwdown and show me how you can handle up to three people at a time. That I would like to see.
Of course, you will do like most BJK people do and simply make up some excuse, such as the aforementioned "lung problems".

This experience was contrasted significantly when I moved interstate and changed dojos to be confronted with mats, no improvisation, no multiple combat, and a softly softly approach. Different instructor - different rules. To be honest I didn't enjoy it as much as the hard workout I got in my previous dojo but I was faced with little choice.

Review both Dojos for us. Maybe your first dojo has t3h r34l BJK.

My experiences with other martial arts was - to say the lest - disappointing. Most of the instructors were bullys and thugs. I was 32 - post transplant - I wasn't looking to play silly games like wasting 20 minutes doing pushups on my dime. One instructor told us that we had to request permission to not attend a training session. What a jerk!

Pushups? ohhh noeeessssss. WHy bother to get in any kind of physical shape for a MA? Who needs it with all of the secret d34dly teachniques you were learning.
As for the "permission" thing. I call shenannigans on you. Better yet, Dojo reviwe please, so others can avoid the place.

What is really sad to see is that martial artists are having armchair battles over which is a good martial art or not based - not on experience - but on their beliefs and prejudices.

Almost Four hundred Years ago Miyamoto Musashi said in his book of Wind that "In strategy you must know the Ways of other schools". This means actually being openminded enough to attend classes and learn the moves. I see none of that here. I see insular minds arguing that their martial art is better than <insert name>.

Isnt this EXACTLY what you are doing? Just in case you are kind of slow....IT IS.

While in the Wind book Musashi does criticise other martial arts but not by name - by technique. This allows the reader to recognise the technique without bogging down into whether it is *blah* or *blag* martial art or not.

So its ok if HE does it, but not us? Besides, he WASNT a ninjar, most of his stories are "unverifiable" if not just out and out lies, and he practiced Aikido/Kendo, or some variation thereof, because he was a Samurai. (At least he claimed to be)
So your whole argument has gone out the window.

whir, click click, bang bang bang bang, thunk thunk, ding ding ding, whoop whoop whoop whoop, kaboom.

Pretty much what you should have typed.
You are a troll, but I was bored so I humored you.

[Sophist]

There are many examples of this. One case in point is Bujinkan. So what that some Japanese guy made it up or based it on an old book or learned it from some dead japanese guy. Does it matter?

No one here calls Kendo, and BJJ and Aikido "fake" martial arts. In fact, based on the criticism I have seen about Bujinkan - BJJ, Kendo and Aikido are complete fakes - invented recently, has no real practical use except for UFC bouts or tournaments.

It's hard to take you seriously when you start off with stuff like this.

BJJ does not claim to have existed before Maeda taught the Gracies; kendo's perfectly happy to acknowledge its mid-Edo period origins and aikido's way too hung up on Ueshiba's genius to claim an earlier origin. The Bujinkan has repeatedly claimed a historical lineage it can not or will not prove. Can you see why it might be tasked with dishonesty where the others are not?

Now, if we decide to pass over the question of historicity and move onto evidence that the art is effective, we can look at each art's claims again. Kendo makes no claim to be more than a sport. BJJ has decades of success in Vale Tudo, no holds barred one on one fights, which tends to show that within certain parameters it is almost obscenely effective. I'll skim over aikido for the moment as not many here champion aikido as an effective martial art, but I will mention that many of their claims of value rest on Ueshiba being purportedly a tough son-of-a-bitch.

The Bujinkan's claim to effectiveness however doesn't rest on its members having thrown down with and beaten other arts, nor on some other carefully documented body of evidence showing the advantages it lends its practitioners. Instead, it has to rely on either a) Hatsumi is or was a badass or b) these techniques are descended from real ninja techniques, and if they worked in feudal Japan, they'll work just as well now! For many of us, there just isn't enough evidence to thoroughly convince us of a), and well, b) takes us back to that question of historicity we thought we'd got away from...

And definitely not military combat tested. Not really much of a martial arts and yet people raise BJJ as an example of a real martial art against Bujinkan or even Karate (apparently some japanese guy in okinawa just invented that fake martial art too!). So weird.

Pardon? You are aware that BJJ makes up a significant part of the modern US Military Combatives curriculum, right?

And while I'd be here perfectly within my rights to brag about BJJ's adoption by the U.S. Military and suggest that shows its superiority... it really doesn't. Soldiers are taught to fight with weapons from start to finish, and any unarmed component of their education is given relatively cursory attention at best. This should be readily apparent given some of the more ludicrous combative systems of the past - e.g. Fairbairn's heavy use of judo striking. (I love judo, but not one judoka in a thousand would argue that judo striking is worth anything these days.)

For the record I did do Bujinkan. For fun. For my life. My lung transplant left me as weak as a kitten and after 1 year of Bujinkan training I was superfit - well ok I could stand up without falling over :) . It was an excellent experience for me.

This is all very well, but you know, round these parts we've this odd notion that a martial art should teach you how to fight, or it may stand accused of misrepresenting itself. If the Bujinkan advertised itself as a novel alternative way of getting fit and recuperating from life-changing injuries, few of us would more than glance at it.

Some of the guys were bouncers and police officers that regularly used their skills in combat against other martial arts and non-martial arts combatants.

You realise that the modus operandi of bouncers and police officers is generally to swarm a single offender with a mob of people, hold said offender down and subdue him? Policemen also generally may have batons, CS gas, tasers, guns, and any other armament that the state sees fit to provide. You will please note that a great many policemen and bouncers with no martial arts training whatsoever have long and successful careers.

My experiences with other martial arts was - to say the lest - disappointing. Most of the instructors were bullys and thugs. I was 32 - post transplant - I wasn't looking to play silly games like wasting 20 minutes doing pushups on my dime. One instructor told us that we had to request permission to not attend a training session. What a jerk!

I'd pretty much agree with your "jerk" assessment. What art was that instructor from, by the way? I'd almost be prepared to lay money that it was not boxing, judo or BJJ. People rarely get that size of stick up their ass in the sparring arts.

For a site that claims to remove the bullshit from martial arts all I can see are the bullies and thugs piling bullshit on other martial arts and only a rare glimpse of true martial artists.

You're missing the point. We're trying to employ logic and the scientific method as best we can to sift through the mountains of wild claims thrown from every corner of martial arts to discern the genuine from the fraudulent. And make no mistake, fraud is endemic in this field. It's as though we had an army of swimming coaches out there who taught their students on dry land, cautioned them that swimming pools developed bad habits, and reassured them that if they needed to swim for their life, their training would give them the ability. Their students would not be able to swim, but people drown infrequently enough that their deception would not be readily uncovered.

My question to those who dont TLDR is: has Martial Arts losing its substance and become just another religious debate - a debate where one is not allowed an opinion?

This should not be and should never have been religious. This should not be and should never have been a matter of opinion. This should have been from the beginning a question of science. We have a testing protocol: take two men, stick them in a cage and tell them to fight until one submits or is unable to continue, and document whose training served him best. If you don't like it, construct a better one and say why you believe it's better. When you start shying away from testable data and reproducible results, you make space for charlatans.

Many martial arts have changed significantly over the last 50 years, why?. Is the introduction of the belt system - particularly the black belt poisoning our arts?

Which arts? And the black belt was introduced by Jigoro Kano over a century ago, and has featured from the inception of a great many arts which like to suggest they're older than they are.

[Matt W.]

You know I, I'm a n00b here ...

Wow, a total noob trying to offer meaningful criticism of a site they have barely even scratched the surface of!

Strike 1.

[I] came along here hoping, I suppose, to find a rational discussion debunking fraudulent practitioners... ...So what that some Japanese guy made it up...

You came here expecting to find fraud busting and then claim it doesn't matter that the history of your art is fraudulent. Huge contradiction.

Strike 2.

based on the criticism I have seen about Bujinkan - BJJ, Kendo and Aikido are complete fakes -

A. Kendo is a sport and is only criticized when viewed as a realistic combat system.

B. Aikido is criticized for being LARPing and having unrealistic training methods ALL THE TIME. We even had an Aikido sucks month which, apparently you missed. The fact that you missed that shows just how little you actually know about this site, which makes your criticism absurdly uninformed.

C. Bunjikan is not criticized for being recently invented. It is criticized for having a fake history, unrealistic training methodology and ridiculous unworkable techniques. It has NONE of those things in common with BJJ.

Strike 3. You're out.

[BloodMagus]

Rather then repeat the same counter points that were made in the above two replies, I'll stick with last paragraph.

My question to those who dont TLDR is: has Martial Arts losing its substance and become just another religious debate - a debate where one is not allowed an opinion? Many martial arts have changed significantly over the last 50 years, why?. Is the introduction of the belt system - particularly the black belt poisoning our arts?

Since when did religion come into play? Or are you attempting to compare such debate to the one taking place. And exactly what do you define as the substance of Martial Arts?

We're all entitled to an opinion, but its all heresay. So instead, lets keep to facts.

The belt/rank system, is at its core, was something to catergorise students into skill categories. However when people use it for other things, (incentive, marketing, decoration), it fucks things up.


The only thing poisioning martial arts is greed and ego.

[Phrost]

Gee, what a useful and informative title for this thread. With a title like that, I'm sure our community of almost 40,000 members will be able to easily notice and address your concerns and engage you in discussion.

[money]

I think the correct response to this would be...

tl;dr

[Matt W.]

Gee, what a useful and informative title for this thread. With a title like that, I'm sure our community of almost 40,000 members will be able to easily notice and address your concerns and engage you in discussion.

Ah, but see, he capitalized the S. So we'd see BS in the title of BullShido. Which is a subtle way of suggesting... something.

[FickleFingerOfFate]

Ah, but see, he capitalized the S. So we'd see BS in the title of BullShido. Which is a subtle way of suggesting... something.

That he's a trolling ninjer,

who's out of Jr. High

and looking for fun

without leaving the basement?

[plasma]

Mod note: Thread title changed to reflect thread.

[Rubber Tanto]

Mod note: Thread title changed to reflect thread.

Hey Plasma if you were going to change the title to reflect the thread you should have put a picture of a big steaming pile of dog shit.
What a worthless discussion.

Tell you the truth, GBLS, I have learnt a shit load since coming on here. And I feel that a lot has changed in the time I have been on. Yeah the LOL ninjaz attitude still exists but those who talk straight get the respect they deserve, those that talk shit get left in the wake of the forum. The bujinkan guys that take their realistic training seriously have been very helpful to me in the past here and have helped me and my sensei put together a very worthy program. Every other forum I have tried to discuss such topics on feed me (and others) the tagline response that I am just not bujinkan anymore.

If you don't like what you read here, then just log off. If your BJK training is alive/realistic then go the thread I started in this part of the forum and tell us what you do that makes your training effective.

If you have any footage of your training to back this up, then post it for reference.
~Nick

[Phrost]

As far as the thread title change go, it was a good call. Even if the original discussion wasn't that great, it could be used for more productive discussion on the subject.

[Goju - Joe]

To answer the OP

A martial art based around Ninja's is only slightly less silly than an martial art based around pirates.