WT in MMA

[It is Fake]

Actually, there is a very long thread on this subject. I've debated moving it to that one. The only real difference, the discussion was Judo based instead of WC.

[M1K3]

This has been good. A crappy thread has turned into something interesting. Maybe this last part should be pulled into a separate thread to attract more interest?

[Rivington]

Here's some serious hair splitting:

"As soon as possible" is not the same as "as soon as practical", "as soon as safe", or "as soon as prudent". It can be possible for people to spar almost immediately, but I'd contend that it's not necessarily practical, safe or prudent to do so.

Right. "As soon as useful for the student" is another good way to look at it.

[It is Fake]

Here's some serious hair splitting:

"As soon as possible" is not the same as "as soon as practical", "as soon as safe", or "as soon as prudent". It can be possible for people to spar almost immediately, but I'd contend that it's not necessarily practical, safe or prudent to do so.

Thank you. Much better. ^^This is my point. You disagreed with DA's assertion but, you were actually agreeing.

You ended up in a semantics battle.

You had a contact background regardless of whether it is striking or grappling.
You hopped into MMA sparring day one.

I liked contact because, I wanted to learn how to fight. I jumped right in.


This is not for everyone as evidenced by Dagon.

[TheRuss]

Ok well I guess I feel like I'm not splitting hairs because ASAP means exactly that. As soon as possible. I feel the time may change, but the point is, as soon as you personally can. Not when you feel confident, or comfortable, or whatever.

Edit: What I mean is, everyone should be in the ASAP camp. Regardless.

Here's some serious hair splitting:

"As soon as possible" is not the same as "as soon as practical", "as soon as safe", or "as soon as prudent". It can be possible for people to spar almost immediately, but I'd contend that it's not necessarily practical, safe or prudent to do so.

[Gabetuno]

I didn't say you said that. I was asking if that's what you meant. It wasn't a rhetorical question. Again, I feel like we are heading in the same direction but on different tracks so I'll just drop it.

[It is Fake]

I'm not trying to be right, I'm just saying what I think. Disagree if you like, it's fine with me.

Right but, then you say something like this:

I don't get your point though. Are you saying exception should be made for those who are gonna walk away from the idea that you start with contact?

Who said exceptions? If you are an instructor you know, some people don't learn as well or as fast as others. Some people have to be warmed to the idea of contact. Like Dagon said, he learned bad habits by getting hit to soon.

So saying someone is better served by day one sparring isn't true. It also doesn't mean everyone should be in the ASAP camp. It isn't an absolute. Now, you may not mean it but, everything you type is an absolute right now.

People are tied up in their faces, even men. You've been here long enough to hear people whine about "OMG what about work." This isn't a small group of people.

Please show me where I said make an exception.

[Gabetuno]

I'm not trying to be right, I'm just saying what I think. Disagree if you like, it's fine with me.

I don't get your point though. Are you saying exception should be made for those who are gonna walk away from the idea that you start with contact?

[It is Fake]

Ok well I guess I feel like I'm not splitting hairs because ASAP means exactly that. As soon as possible. I feel the time may change, but the point is, as soon as you personally can. Not when you feel confident, or comfortable, or whatever.

Edit: What I mean is, everyone should be in the ASAP camp. Regardless.

No they should not.

Look quit trying to be right.

I guess that doesn't strike you as suspicious? It does to me, as every MA teacher I've had has encouraged me to have mat time with anyone I can and or spar with anyone I can as often as possible. It's how you get better.

It also can be how you develop bad habits. Sparring too early can cause you to cover, be defensive, hide, and become a pussy. I would say this is much less true for submission arts, but getting tagged on the nose and not knowing what to do takes longer to train out. I know it did for me, as my karate sparring created a lot of bad habits (tension, ducking, rolling, closing my eyes when striking, turning off, etc.).

This is splitting hairs. You are both right. Remember the biggest response to anti-MMA is I'm not here to get hurt. You guys don't see a huge cross section of students. Yes, I'm saying certain striking arts see many more pussy ass true beginners. When people look at BJJ and MT they know they are going to get hit. They pass that school more times than not.

I'll tell you from experience contact turns people off. I had potential students leave because they saw white belts spar.

I've watched a good pop make a student quit. I've seen wrists sprained and broken due to poor mechanics. Some people have to be eased into sparring.

[Gabetuno]

That is why you are splitting hairs. I hopped right in when I started my first martial art. I coached people that took weeks to spar.

What principle are you talking about?

Sparring is necessary? Of course I agree. I'm in the asap camp

Yet, you left that when you started splitting hairs on when to spar.

Ok well I guess I feel like I'm not splitting hairs because ASAP means exactly that. As soon as possible. I feel the time may change, but the point is, as soon as you personally can. Not when you feel confident, or comfortable, or whatever.

Edit: What I mean is, everyone should be in the ASAP camp. Regardless.

[M1K3]

From what I remember of my limited boxing training a long long long time ago we went through a progression.

1. How to hold your hands...practice in front of a mirror
2. How to move your feet...practice in front of a mirror...keep your damn hands up
3. How to throw a punch..practice in front of a mirror...keep your hands up
4. Throw punch against a bag.. keep your damn hands (well you get the picture on that)
5. Throw punches against targets
6. Throw punches against moving targets
7. Shadowbox
8. Spar.

I may not have the order exactly right and the time frame was like 4 weeks(?) from starting to first easy sparring session.

[It is Fake]

That is why you are splitting hairs. I hopped right in when I started my first martial art. I coached people that took weeks to spar.

What principle are you talking about?

Sparring is necessary? Of course I agree. I'm in the asap camp

Yet, you left that when you started splitting hairs on when to spar.

[Gabetuno]

What is it about that picture that is SO fucking hot.

Also, my wrestlers don't start from their knees.

Also, that's what she said.

[TheRuss]

But I don't understand why the rules might be any different for striking. Maybe I need more headgear. :p

Well, when it comes to grappling, you can make it fairly n00b-friendly with two simple adaptations:
1) Start from the knees
2) Make sure both parties know how tapping works

I'm not sure that there's anything like that for striking, except for maybe...

[Gabetuno]

Nope. Not even a little. I'm pretty bad. But I don't understand why the rules might be any different for striking. Maybe I need more headgear. :p

Edit: I agree. Nothing is cut and dry. What may be a day for me may be an hour for someone else and a week for yet another person. But I think the principle stands.