WT in MMA

[Tonuzaba]

I find it slightly disturbing how you can't refer to Leung Ting without using the Grandmaster title.

Why? I study the system he is the head of. Simple.

[Asriel]

So? I don't refer to Heli Gracie as GM or Roger Gracie as Sensei, Sifu, Mestre etc.

When I studied Kung Fu I didn't refer to my Sifu as Sifu when referring to him while talking to other people.

It seems a little... well... Cultish.

[Virus]

So? I don't refer to Heli Gracie as GM or Roger Gracie as Sensei, Sifu, Mestre etc.

When I studied Kung Fu I didn't refer to my Sifu as Sifu when referring to him while talking to other people.

It seems a little... well... Cultish.

Becuase it is. Don't argue with people that do BJJ and judo Tonuzaba. We're just plain better than other people.

[MrMcFu]

They have to make sure you've got the right attitude for brain washing.

No, your cup just has to be empty.

[Tonuzaba]

Becuase it is. Don't argue with people that do BJJ and judo Tonuzaba. We're just plain better than other people.

This is cool. Though chunnish...
Can I sig it? :occasion1

[Tonuzaba]

So? I don't refer to Heli Gracie as GM or Roger Gracie as Sensei, Sifu, Mestre etc.
When I studied Kung Fu I didn't refer to my Sifu as Sifu when referring to him while talking to other people.
It seems a little... well... Cultish.

You don't, I do. Althouh I no longer (at least at the moment) study under si-fu Norbert Maday, I still refer to him as that.
When talking about him to people who have no idea about MA's, I might only say his name.
Here you know what si-fu means (or is supposed to mean).
So I use it.
Got used to it.
Get used to it too.

[Asriel]

Call him what you like, I still think you're hugging his nuts so tight that he can't get his trousers on properly.

[Tom Kagan]

You're not rambling IMO, you're informing us and giving an opinion, both are worthy approaches. Thanx.
Now this makes me wonder why would a BJJ black belt want to be associated with the "totally useless" Wing Tsun place?....

Don't be fucking ridiculous. Whomever happens to be at a particular place does not "validate" the place. Have you ever heard of BEING PAID for your services? And, even if no money changes hands, volunteers don't work for free.


To take your argument to some different extremes:

1. If one of your classmates is a CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation, does that mean your school is 'validated' as being good for training business?

2. If one of your classmates was a contract killer who had taken jobs which killed children, does that mean your school is 'validated' for training organized crime activity?

3. If one of your classmates is gay, does that mean your school is 'validated' for training homosexuality?

4. If one your classmates was so nuts he was eventually committed to an institution, does that mean your school is 'validated' for training insanity?



If you are going to be so full of yourself and so blinded by a love of all things in your art by seeking validation via someone else's deeds, then you are going to have to RIDE ALL THE NUTS there. You don't get to pick and choose so you can use a little BJJ nutriding to create a straw man argument.

[Sophist]

Tonuzaba, there are some pretty big problems with going around challenging people to fight.

1) Legally, you're on pretty shaky ground. It's very easy to twist your challenge into a threatened assault.
2) Going into someone's school is not meeting them on neutral territory. If their friends/students get upset they're getting their ass kicked and step in, being the best damn unarmed fighter in the world may not prevent you from receiving a beatdown.

So, really, we're forced to fall back on the evidence presented by people who've stepped up to the plate and met others openly. Fortunately, chunners have represented at Throwdowns before. Unfortunately, a fair amount of the links to older video I'm finding are no longer operational - we used to have video of grond and Dr. Tzun Tzu fighting (the threads seem to indicate that grond had some striking capability marred by bad habits like keeping his chin high, but Dr. Tzun Tzu's showing was pretty dire. I saw the latter video myself some time ago, and would tentatively agree with that assessment, with the proviso that I'm no striker). There may still be vids out there in the throwdown threads. Anyone who can think of any, please post them.
We do still have the Wing Chun vs Systema video from a throwdown preserved for posterity:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50295

We also have a shitload of ex-chunners kicking around who'll testify to the skills their training left them with.

If I can sidetrack into an analogy for a moment, though, it may help. Let's go back to the old chestnut of comparing swimming and martial arts. I'm not going to go down the tired swimming on dry land route again, rest assured.

Let's postulate a world in which swimming instructors group themselves into separate styles. All of them claim to be able to teach people to swim well enough to escape a shipwreck and make it to land, with some caveats regarding weather and distance. Few of them are foolish enough to deliberately jump off boats and swim across stormy seas to land, though all of them have anecdotes of their students managing to do just that.

Some of these swimming styles compare their ability against that of their peers by holding public endurance races in swimming pools; others, claiming to be less shipwreck-oriented and more about fun, hold speed races instead. The rest however refuse to believe that swimming pools are adequate testing grounds for ocean-going technique, and do not take part in the public swimming pool races, whatever they do in private. We'll call the two main groups Competitors and Reality-Oriented Swimmers (ROSs for short).

Very occasionally, however, footage of the ROSs leaks out. To the Competitors, it looks amateurish and weak. ROSs are forced to admit that sometimes schools in their individual styles produce weak students, but are adamant that there's nothing wrong with the training, it's just its implementation in these places that's at fault.

The odd ROS turns up at Competitor swim meets. Mostly their performance is unimpressive, but a few of them verge on adequacy. None of them make waves at the elite swim meets for the best Competitors. Generally the sort of ROS who manages to make it to a swim meet is merely trying to establish his style is an okay way to train, not the best style ever.

That's our setup. Now, we have a ROS claiming that the Competitors are being unduly harsh on his style because they've not faced off against its members. Never mind that this style doesn't send people out to compete, that its rhetoric disclaims the usefulness of swimming pool training, or that historically most practitioners have insisted that only a shipwreck situation is an adequate test; never mind that the sparse available footage of its students is almost uniformly awful and that the few semi-acceptable ones who've shown up at swim meets have been a very long way from elite swimmers: its usefulness cannot be dismissed until the Competitors have investigated every single individual in the style themselves and verified that they're not an elite swimmer.

Can you see why the Competitors might feel a little impatient with this situation?

So? I don't refer to Heli Gracie as GM or Roger Gracie as Sensei, Sifu, Mestre etc.

I sometimes accidentally typo "Jigoro Kano" as "God", but, in fairness, the keys are right next to each other.

[Virus]

Sorry. I had the most awesome post and I accidentally lost it by pressing the back button. I'll do my best to recreate the former post but you have to believe me when I say that my FORMER POST USED TO BE DA T3h R34lz0rz!!!1111!!11oneoneone.

It's time for an non-trollish post.

I started off with a rundown of the evolution of MMA. I'll try and cut a long story short, even though this is elementary knowledge to people that have followed the sport:

It started of with the grapple getting the pwn and eventually people got it into their thick heads that if you can't fight on the ground you are wormfood for people that can.

The central question that we have to ask ourselves is why did MMA integrate boxing, KB and MT into it's striking game rather than the Ving zungz? The reason is simple to those that have been paying attention to the theory of Matt Thornton and Aliveness. Sports like boxing and MT have always existed in an alive environment whereas the ving has not. It's time to come clean. We don't know why, we don't know how but The "traditional martial arts" didn't know that the fuck they were doing. They thought that their abstract idea of fighting was good enough. They thought that if something makes sense in hypothesis, then it must be OK in reality. It;s time to face a hard fact people; (and this comes from the Thornton himself) 99% of Asian martial arts consist of dead patterns.. Let's face it. there's sod all evidence that these styles used to be r34l. Does any field of knowledge get worse over time? Did medicine used be really good but we "forgot" the wisdom of the ancients? Bugger No! Knowledge increases over time. things get better over time. We have never been in a better position to scientifically evaluate the merits of particular styles and we should all count ourselves lucky that we live in the age of MMA.

Let me let you in on something. Aliveness is good. Aliveness has t3h k0rr3ct, but to get to the root of the problem we need to know WHY that is the case. Aliveness conforms to the principle of specificity as defined by modern sports science. We have discovered through tge use of the scientific method, applied to sports, that the closer a training exercise replicates the goal of the training, the better the result. Look at the average ving training. You see a bunch of elaborate blocks, deflections, parries, trapping but none of it has ever been seen in an alive situation. The vungers that possess common sense know this, and have historically revised what the training is all about. I'm sorry but the principle of specificity, the cornerstone of sports science, says that if you are not isolating and replicating what happens in a real fight, your drills are bollocks. If you aren't using the exact same thing under alive conditions you are wasting your time with that drill. This is the reason that cyclists aren't jogging to get better at cycling, and archers aren't playing darts to get better at archery. There is a thing called the motor program. It's like a computer program for your brain. It's an complex, organically based set of instructions that tells your body when to move a certain muscle, how much, at what speed and at what angle. When you train for a certain motor program you get better at that program itself.

The degree of applicability is defined by its specificity. Some hockey players train by using a heavier stick, and baseball players train by using a heavier bat. This is the OVERLOAD principle, and is an entirely valid training method. But the modern sports trainer understands this when such a drill is prescribed, by going back to a normal bat you are changing the motor program. The muscles of the athlete must work at slightly different angles of resistance to cope with the heavier bat. You see, specificity is very, well, specific. This is why it is a huge fallacy to say that horse stances increase one's dynamic balance in a fight, or that ving zomg slap drills are training you for something that is applicable in an alive situation. It isn't because if you train in an elaborate set of choreographed deflections and blocks you are training your body to use a specific motor program. Put yourself in an alive situation and you have changed the motor program. The training is useless.

The sports are aware of this fact. This is why they don't get athletes to spend hours in stances that aren't used in real competition, and doing drills which don't replicate specific movements used in competition. Do you think the old Chinese masters were aware of this? You know that only as far back as the 1970's coaches were still giving rugby players 10 kilometer jogs dispute the fact that slow, steady jogs were not used in the sport. Rugby is a power, explosive sport. You run in sprints and modern training reflects that. There are no longer 10K runs in power sports.

This is why SPORTS were adapted for MMA and not arts that have been composed of dead, slappy and artificial drills. It's not that the people that happened to compete didn't have the t3h r34l. It's because that styles that have not existed in a long term environment of fully alive performance are fundamentally, deeply flawed because of that very reason. The only things that qualify as existing in that environments are combat sports. I'm talking judo, BJJ, boxing wrestling, muay thai, sambo and so on. This is why I'm nutrider of modern combat sports, and this is why sports, without fail made the cut in MMA and not things like t3h ving zumg. It's more than just a coincidence.

[It is Fake]

Tonuzaba

Who started this thread?

A chunner with your lineage.

End of story.

[Tonuzaba]

Tonuzaba

Who started this thread?

A chunner with your lineage.

End of story.

Well, to be very precise, he is not my lineage... :happy7:
I don't really get why this would mean end of story...
We don't push some kind of printed out agenda together.

[Tomas Drgon]

No, your cup just has to be empty.

Ehm...

Kids cup IS empty...


[/lame_humor]

Tomas

[Tomas Drgon]

This is why SPORTS were adapted for MMA and not arts that have been composed of dead, slappy and artificial drills. It's not that the people that happened to compete didn't have the t3h r34l. It's because that styles that have not existed in a long term environment of fully alive performance are fundamentally, deeply flawed because of that very reason. The only things that qualify as existing in that environments are combat sports. I'm talking judo, BJJ, boxing wrestling, muay thai, sambo and so on. This is why I'm nutrider of modern combat sports, and this is why sports, without fail made the cut in MMA and not things like t3h ving zumg. It's more than just a coincidence.

Excellent.
Science FTW.

Tomas

[polishillusion]

why have i not seen that chunner and systema video before?

and why were they even allowed to keep slapping each other into obscurity?