WT in MMA

[Virus]

Please find a video of ANY wing chun technique performing under alive conditions and we'll talk business. Kthanx.

[DevonHartigan]

Please find a video of ANY wing chun technique performing under alive conditions and we'll talk business. Kthanx.

C'mon, don't you think that is little too much to ask of them?

[DevonHartigan]

Okay, some new background info on Henning Daverne by request of the good Doctor Tzun Tzu.

First off, I found this very blurry article which I could barely read.

http://www.wingtsun.dk/pdf/hd_fighter_4_2006.pdf

It is from the only danish MA magazine called fighter, which I would say is the equivalent of the black belt magazine. It is really long and boring, because he mostly talks about his spiritual journey to India and about how important inner peace and harmony is(he also teaches meditation). The article just starts off with that WT is the most questioned MA in Denmark, and is generally considered as the black sheep in danish MA circles. After this he talks a lot about how WT is misunderstood(generally just defends WT), inner peace and so on...
He then talks about the differences between fighting in the ring and on the street(if you want I can translate this bit), and about how there is always three enemies in a fight(your inner self - your fear, your opponent, and the law). Which is basically it. Again long article.

I also found this list of his experience.

http://www.wingtsun.dk/instructor/Sifu_Henning.htm

To cut it short. He started practising WT 1982.

In the "other experience" list it says that started Kuikushinkai Karate in 1979 and after this shotokan, Hung Chen Kung Fu...
He has fought 10 boxing matches(won them all, 7 by KO) and specifically trained boxing, but it doesn't state when this was. I can only speculate and say that it was probably also in the early 80's.

Oh yeah and under "personal qualifications" he says "school of life"...oh brother!


So basically I didn't get any wiser about the video clip featuring him. I could try to ask about the video on a danish MA forum, but I don't think I'd bother actually doing it.

[Axelton]

Excellent find Devon.

[PPlate]

DTT, thanks for the names.

Just to refresh everyone's memory, we were debating on this statement:

"WT won NUMEROUS full contact venues in the 1970's and 1980's. WC won many before that. - DTT"

You may not have intended to, but my interpretation of the statement was that WC won many full contact fights against other arts.

Here's what I found.

As requested:

1) Milan Prosenica, Yugoslavia. Many Full Contact Titles, 1982 International Kung Fu Championship Tournament Winner

According to what this article says here:

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/sifu...proencia-1.jpg

he was a Karate champ in his home country in 1976. He took up WC after that, then he won in a kung fu tournament. My Chinese is poor, so if someone can translate that more fully it'd be appreciated.

So his karate enabled him to beat other kung fu stylists? That's a point open for contention, so I'll leave it at that.

2) Wandy Lam, Woman Champ, Hong Kong, 2nd International Free-Fighting Championship Tournament

Couldn't find anything on Wandy or the International Free-Fighting Championship Tournament. Without that info, it'll be hard to even say if she won in a forms competition or in a full-contact fight.

3) Kim Man, 1981 America-Asia Championship Tournament winner, Hong Kong

Without his full name, am unable to find anything on him. Also couldn't find anything on the American-Asia Championship.

4) Leung Tuen, Early days open Kung Fu full contact contest Champion, 1974ish

Without names of contest, unable to verify the quality of contestants, and what other arts were in it. And I assume as a kung fu contests, it's pitted against other kung fu fighters only.

5) Leung Kwon Wah, Numerous Championships 1970's

Without name of championships, unable to verify anything.

6) Tam Hung Fun, famous trainer of winners through the 1980's (New Zeland headmaster)

Again, useless for our discussion, unless winners were named and proven that they used the WC learnt from Tam to win in full-contact fights against other arts.

7) Ng Ga Hung, 1982 International Chinese Kung Fu and Free Fighting Championship Tournament light weight runner up

Kung Fu tournament, so inadmissable.

8) Wong Sau Kin, Champ 1978

Champ of what?

*Giggle*...I'm PPlate, "The Ultimate Destroyer of Testicles", winner of numerous (cheesecake baking) tournaments.

10) Man Lap Kwong
11) Lee Chi Wing
12)Liu Yum Ting, numerous full contact wins

Again, inadmissable as evidence that WT has a long history of besting other arts in full contact fights.

For the discussion from here on:
We are talking about this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-RXm...52173&index=35

This is the point you made that I was questioning:

"Please watch the video and notice that his training portions and demos show exactly the same methods as the sport fighting. This is another notion, that we somehow don't fight as we train, which this video in particlular covers nicely. - DTT"

Once again, you may not have meant it this way, but I took it that "sport fighting" referred to the portion where he was boxing.

at :44 he is using the same stances he uses in the boxing ring fights, which he uses again at :52 in the ring demo. Same leg work as in the boxing fights.

What's so special about the stance that is unique to WC? And what has that got to do with his boxing fight?

Here he also does a chest kick here, which he does at 1:58 in the free fight (this could be a staged demo free fight, we can't really tell, I am just assuming its free fighting).

I'm not disputing that the chest kick works, because I know it does, but first, he's fighting another WC fighter, and two, what we were debating was that he used WT to win in boxing in the ring.

At 2:02 he then pulls him to the ground as he did earlier in demos several times, as at :47 in training with complient students. It is pretty obvious that he is doing the same stuff trough out, i shouldn't have to lay it out like this.

This is against the same WC fighter as above. I'm not disputing the fact that these moves work, but where's the proof that he used WT in the BOXING ring, against the BOXER?

The elbows he does with the blind fold on in the beginning are just as the clinch and elbows in the free fighting. remeber to turn down the volume so as to not suffer that song over and over..:-)

As above.

DTT, the part of the clip I'm interested in is from 1:03 to 1:38. The original question was, where's the WC/VT in that? It looks like pure boxing to me!

Well, i don't expect you to understand an appeal to authority, since its a fallacy anyway, but when a 5 time world champion takes up another MA, generally one would expect him to do that because it IMPROVES HIS SKILLS!!!! May you think Fox is just a tard though, or ting bribed him, doesn't matter eally, I think he left Ting later anyway. Someone should ak him. Ting claims that Chun came from a cross over with ancient MT so maybe it has to do with that.

I really do not dispute that WC/VT has some useful elements that could be taken to improve one's game. However, why Fox took up VT is open for speculation. He's a businessman. I'll be seeing him next weekend for the Muay Thai Explosion fight and see if I can get the chance to speak to him.

So, since Henning did boxing before WT, that prevented him from improving boxing with WT? Funny thing is HE STILL TO THIS DAY DOES WT. You would think if it was just boxing then he would go back to just boxing eh? Maybe WT assimilated Hennings Knockdown Knock out Boxing knowledge, as we are always springtime (always growing) ya know.

DTT, the part of the clip I'm interested in is from 1:03 to 1:38. The original question was, where's the WC/VT in that? It looks like pure boxing to me!

Interesting logic on this site. I read Bas Rutten did karate before MT, so we should credit Karate with his success then?

You'd have to ask him! My guess is yes, kyokushin probably did make a difference to making him the champion he was. He was a 5th dan in Kyokushin btw.

[PPlate]

What is quality evidence?

You are giving evidence for what? That's right, that WT is a good fighting system. Thus, won't it be logical to conclude that:

Quality evidence = Emin Botepze (or some other elite WT guy) beating:

- an elite MT fighter in a fight (Buakaw, Changpuek, Masato, etc.)
- an elite boxer in a fight
- any of the fighting Gracies in a fight
- any elite MMA fighter in a fight

The following (below) does not qualify as quality evidence.

I have shown that Special Military/police units train it exclusively,

And Navy Seals did SCARS too. And Marines did LINE. Heck, the elite police in my country trains in TKD. Need I say more?

I have shown the World Champ and National Champs convert to WT,

This is a suggestion that WT has something to offer them, not necessarily that it is proof WT is an effective fighting art against trained fighters from other arts. I will say that I think WT is effective against untrained people or poorly trained people though, from what I've seen.

I have held my own using the LIMITED subset of techniques available at a TD,

Do you have a link to the video? I won't criticize, I just want to watch.

[DevonHartigan]

Nice responses PPlate.

Also don't forget the very name of this thread is "WT in MMA". MMA can be understood in two ways(Either having different MA's fighting each other, or fighting under MMA rules). I think it is kind of a stretch to call a handful of boxing matches mixed martial arts fighting. And the part of the video, with MMA rules, it was two WT'ers fighting each other.

But if WT'ers have fought full contact earlier and won nonetheless, why have they suddenly stopped and decided that they don't have to prove themselves anymore? I also bet that the ruleset was quite a bit more conservative in the 70's and 80's. It is new times, and with no hold barred rules.

[taichideph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyitD6_fsrU

...

[3moose1]

So your saying with Wing Tsun, i too, can throw girly slaps, and rape some guy with my big toe?

[Kintanon]

Only if you're 30lbs heavier than he is....

That guy was dropping a lot of heavy elbows.

[3moose1]

Only if you're 30lbs heavier than he is....

That guy was dropping a lot of heavy elbows.

and the guy who got them is a bitch and didn't know what he was doing.


Posting that video to show wing tsun's effectiveness in mma is like me beating a retarded kid in chess, sad, and pointless.

[EternalRage]

please only one chun thread on YMAS front page at one time... or else the forum will implode

[Tonuzaba]

So your saying with Wing Tsun, i too, can throw girly slaps, and rape some guy with my big toe?

You're just jealous because you don't have realistic toe-rape free sparring at your gym...

Sticky toes, an ancient, very secret technique... :XXcat:

[It is Fake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyitD6_fsrU

...

Fail.
4-25-2008
No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - WC discussion part 2

[taichideph]

it just means that WT practicioners can win in MMA too...
when he s on the ground you can definitely see how he manages to stay away from any kind of grappling move, and even though the "big toe up your ass strategy" (lol) and the "Bambi punches" looked weird, it worked.
i ve been practicing WT for quite a while now, but i do it because i like the moves and concepts, not because i pretend to be a badass MMA fighter. But if you spar often and you re not afraid to fight, you can surprise any kind of fighter.
oh yeah, and chain punches dont work, you usuallys dont throw more than 3, then you get hooked or taken down.But you dont need to get your ass kicked once, it s obvious common sense.