WT in MMA

[Virus]

We also follow the belief that all of that stuff in the books really happened, well, the stuff in the early books because Harry Potter used to be t3h r34l before all the LARPers started reading it, then it was watered down and made into fiction.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

for some PM that was recomended to come out inthe open

"Hmm "rationalizing everything to fit...". That sounds strangely familiar DTT. This is what you are doing in my opinion."

That was good, I hoped someone would catch the irony of it.

Good try, but I don't think you covered nearly enough. Should I assume I am correct in the other areas you left out? Specifically the part at the end about Vitor?

It would be nice if someone would address the fact that:

A)numerous former world and national champions form the sports you people love so much CAME TO WT for something more (why would they do that?)(hint:None from BJJ, becuase BJJ allready has Chi Sau, i.e. reflex training not relieing on visual cortex))

B) WT won NUMEROUS full contact venues in the 1970's and 1980's. WC won many before that.

this is evidence, in your own system of proving validity of MA, which is flattly ignored in any arguement presented against me and WT. Virus acts like we have never every entered any sport fighting.

We Full contact spar in an alive manner, we do alot more then chi sau, we resist eachother in training, we ground fight, we are very different then WC. Those arguements are also used against me, when in fact they do not apply. Destroying WC to win an arguement about WT is the biggest strawman ever.

I really just want to know more about Sifu hennings background and training for these boxing matchs. Did he or did he not go outside WT to train for them? It is only a starting point because boxing is contained WITH IN WT. From there, if we ever got that far, we could then progress out to WT in an MMA setting, how it can incorperate BJJ, etc..which Henning is also doing, but the trolls and Virus never let it get that far.

Please watch the video and notice that his training portions and demos show exactly the same methods as the sport fighting. This is another notion, that we somehow don't fight as we train, which this video in particlular covers nicely.


example: the fact that there COULD BE many reasons why a world champion MT like Stephen Fox would become a WT, the MOST LIKELY reason is that they found it improved their MA. I find it hard to believe he would waste his training time on crap. and he is of the highest authority on MT, due to being a Champion yes?

If he went to BJJ people would add this to the "BJJ good" evidence file. "Look, World Champion does BJJ now" Since WT is no longer in sports, it is suspect, I realize, but it doesn't negate the fact the a HIGH Authority approved WT training for HIS MT. I respect his opinion much more then viruses. or just about anybody on this board.

Now I think he later quit WT due to politics, which is another issue. I am strictly trying to get into the technical aspects.

My instructor here in Cali was a German National Champ. His coach was a WT that worked as a Trainer. I know exactly why he came over to WT because he told me. He was the National Champ and his trainer could still handle him easy. He aske dwhy, and found out it was WT. Doing WT he found it took him BEYOND what Kick boxing offers.


I took 6 months of BJJ, from one of the earliest USA BJJ converts, Hal Fulkner (Carlson branch and Mchado BB). We learned various sets of move and escape, from any submission you have two escape directions, based on the way they are setting up, that set up your own submission( I am sure later they add in more, I was just a beginner). And from there they would have 2 possibilitys, and on and on. The main exeercise was to set a sub just to the point of having it begun solid, then your partner escaped to set up his. You just went around and around in a flow through all the various combos. We had several cycles too, to make sure nothing was left out. The goal was to be setting up subs based on feeling and based on escaping from one into the set up of your own.

THIS DRILL IS EXACTLY WHAT CHI SAU IS

I don't care what the label is, you are PURPOSELY allowing your partner to FEEL the set up of a submission, and LETTING him escape and go into his set up. This programs the memory triggers in the limbs themselves. This is "chi sau". Your brain is way to slow to think about these things in a fight, it must be programed in. (by letting, I mean slowing down the submission so as to allow him to get out before it is set completely.

Now in class we spent 10 minutes reviewing some cycles, 30 minutes cycleing, then maybe covered passing the guard etc. then the last half or more of class was sparring.

So the last half was under resistance. Great, I get that, you need to be able to do this stuff in an alive enviornment. That does not change the fact that BJJ has a cycle based on "feel" to program muscle memory. Now the class had two groups, those of us that wanted to improve and did the cycling, and those that ONLY wanted to resist. The instructor had a meeting with our group and said the spar only group was never gonna improve past a certain point because under resistance only, they were not gonna free the mind and learn to feel it. They were fighting their way through everything and thus not learning to feel their way out of things.

Which group are you in?

So talking shit about chi sau is talking shit about sensitivity training, which is part of wrestling, so that means you are dsiing BJJ/Wrestling. Maybe you want to dis just our version of it.

Chi Sau without also doing sparring is another issue. Some CHunners are guilty of this, even in WT, but it clear calls for it in the WT Kuen, going back to 1974. If Running dog or Thonass D. didn't get to spar in their school, well then good for them for quiting it, as it wasn't following the lesson plan.

[RunningDog]

Response to Tony's earlier question about a WT guy who trained in Kernspecht's castle.
I don't know the chap I'm afraid. Given the number of WT students, that's a bit like saying "oh you're from London? Do you know Dave?"

It is, however, a positive sign that someone who trains with the bearded one is not kicked out of the org for cross-training.
It's not a good sign that the guy uses the phrase "devastating strikes", which is a well-known _ing_un bullshit red flag.

[Zio_Missile]

WT won NUMEROUS full contact venues in the 1970's and 1980's

Can u give more info about that ?

[Tonuzaba]

Response to Tony's earlier question about a WT guy who trained in Kernspecht's castle. I don't know the chap I'm afraid. Given the number of WT students, that's a bit like saying "oh you're from London? Do you know Dave?"

I thought this guy's being the chief WT instructor for Central Europe (the part that is covered by Kernspecht's EWTO and not si-fu Maday's HWTO/EEWTO that is) makes him part of a smaller group of top European WT people and you as an ex-instructor might have met him on seminars, etc...
So it's rather like if you're in British politics and I'd ask you if you know Mr. Galloway... :laughing7

[DevonHartigan]

And here is my initial reply to the first part... (It is IMO always better to have these discussions out in the open, but I clearly understand why it is sometimes easier to discuss these things via PM).

for some PM that was recomended to come out inthe open

"Hmm "rationalizing everything to fit...". That sounds strangely familiar DTT. This is what you are doing in my opinion."

That was good, I hoped someone would catch the irony of it.

Indeed everybody rationalizes, though some do it to a larger degree than others.

Good try, but I don't think you covered nearly enough. Should I assume I am correct in the other areas you left out? Specifically the part at the end about Vitor?

Well, I'm not here to please you, but if you divided your post into smaller bits along the way, it would be easier to respond to, and you would have far better odds of getting the answers that you want.
You shouldn't assume anything. I only selected the parts of your post that I really felt needed to be addressed, and that I cared and had an opinion about. The rest I simply didn't bother to respond to. Plus some of it was unclear...or I simply couldn't follow your train of thoughts.

It would be nice if someone would address the fact that:

A)numerous former world and national champions form the sports you people love so much CAME TO WT for something more (why would they do that?)(hint:None from BJJ, becuase BJJ allready has Chi Sau, i.e. reflex training not relieing on visual cortex))

That was a bit unclear formulated but I think I understand your question;
Okay here you are just asking and answering your own question, trying to generalize the reason why all of them made the transition when they could have had a thousand different reasons(and we can only speculate why they would do this). The reasons could be that they might wanted to see what other MA's had to offer, they are curious, they have heard someone talk good about it, their horoscope told them to, because George W. Bush is president... But no, you have to rationalize again, trying to make something fit your agenda, claiming to know the answer.
Besides, many WT'ers also train lots of other things. But isn't WT perfect?(sarcastic and highly ironic rhetorical question). I don't jump to conclusions to why that is.

BJJ doesn't directly train any Chi Sao training, but of course we have to learn the body mechanics of the techniques, and be good at them. Most of it is learned through sparring though..... Again, I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about, but I hope I answered your question.

B) WT won NUMEROUS full contact venues in the 1970's and 1980's. WC won many before that.

this is evidence, in your own system of proving validity of MA, which is flattly ignored in any arguement presented against me and WT. Virus acts like we have never every entered any sport fighting.

We Full contact spar in an alive manner, we do alot more then chi sau, we resist eachother in training, we ground fight, we are very different then WC. Those arguements are also used against me, when in fact they do not apply. Destroying WC to win an arguement about WT is the biggest strawman ever.

The problem is that people need evidence or else it just comes down to faith. The martial arts world has also developed tremendously since then, and what was true before might not be true today. That is why there has to be constant testing.
Most people would also ask the question "Why did you stop fighting in these full contact venues? And didn't you claim that your style was limited under these conditions?". Here you are doing the exact opposite of what you are saying that we are doing, i.e. your victories is because of the awesomeness of your style, and your loses is due to the limitations that you have to fight under.
Yes you might be true about that being a huge strawman, but then make a thread where you list and explain ALL the similarities and differences between WC and WT. Thus you don't have hear about this anymore. (I highly recommend that you do this) I however still claim that it's basically the same.

I really just want to know more about Sifu hennings background and training for these boxing matchs. Did he or did he not go outside WT to train for them? It is only a starting point because boxing is contained WITH IN WT. From there, if we ever got that far, we could then progress out to WT in an MMA setting, how it can incorperate BJJ, etc..which Henning is also doing, but the trolls and Virus never let it get that far.

Please watch the video and notice that his training portions and demos show exactly the same methods as the sport fighting. This is another notion, that we somehow don't fight as we train, which this video in particlular covers nicely.

The "trolls" and Virus are claiming that there are far better and faster ways to do, whatever WT is claiming to do, out there.
But if we first get rid of all the basic misunderstandings, misconceptions, and prejudices the debate would be a lot more construtive. And I don't think that that video covers anything nicely, because it is very short clips out of a context we don't know, plus it is somewhat outdated.

Now for the second PM part

example: the fact that there COULD BE many reasons why a world champion MT like Stephen Fox would become a WT, the MOST LIKELY reason is that they found it improved their MA. I find it hard to believe he would waste his training time on crap. and he is of the highest authority on MT, due to being a Champion yes?

If he went to BJJ people would add this to the "BJJ good" evidence file. "Look, World Champion does BJJ now" Since WT is no longer in sports, it is suspect, I realize, but it doesn't negate the fact the a HIGH Authority approved WT training for HIS MT. I respect his opinion much more then viruses. or just about anybody on this board.

Now I think he later quit WT due to politics, which is another issue. I am strictly trying to get into the technical aspects.

What you fail to realize is, that just because an authority says something is good, doesn't necessarily make it so. This closely resembles a fallacy that is called "argument from authority"(http://www.theskepticsguide.org/logicalfallacies.asp). I also suggest that you read this post by Tom Kagan, as a response to Tonuzaba trying to say that a BB in BJJ affiliated with a WT-club, proves that WT rocks. You can always find some "authority" to back anything up. You can also find Ph.d. scientists supporting Intelligent Design. When the majority of authorities are supporting it, there is slowly created a consensus, and THEN the argument of authority becomes valid.

My instructor here in Cali was a German National Champ. His coach was a WT that worked as a Trainer. I know exactly why he came over to WT because he told me. He was the National Champ and his trainer could still handle him easy. He asked why, and found out it was WT. Doing WT he found it took him BEYOND what Kick boxing offers.

Again much of this is anecdotal evidence. And you can always find examples that support your case, it is the quantity that tend to build the consensus. There could also be many reasons to why his trainer could still handle him, talent, size, general experience and other factors.

I took 6 months of BJJ, from one of the earliest USA BJJ converts, Hal Fulkner (Carlson branch and Mchado BB). We learned various sets of move and escape, from any submission you have two escape directions, based on the way they are setting up, that set up your own submission( I am sure later they add in more, I was just a beginner). And from there they would have 2 possibilitys, and on and on. The main exeercise was to set a sub just to the point of having it begun solid, then your partner escaped to set up his. You just went around and around in a flow through all the various combos. We had several cycles too, to make sure nothing was left out. The goal was to be setting up subs based on feeling and based on escaping from one into the set up of your own.

THIS DRILL IS EXACTLY WHAT CHI SAU IS

I don't care what the label is, you are PURPOSELY allowing your partner to FEEL the set up of a submission, and LETTING him escape and go into his set up. This programs the memory triggers in the limbs themselves. This is "chi sau". Your brain is way to slow to think about these things in a fight, it must be programed in. (by letting, I mean slowing down the submission so as to allow him to get out before it is set completely.

Now in class we spent 10 minutes reviewing some cycles, 30 minutes cycleing, then maybe covered passing the guard etc. then the last half or more of class was sparring.

So the last half was under resistance. Great, I get that, you need to be able to do this stuff in an alive enviornment. That does not change the fact that BJJ has a cycle based on "feel" to program muscle memory. Now the class had two groups, those of us that wanted to improve and did the cycling, and those that ONLY wanted to resist. The instructor had a meeting with our group and said the spar only group was never gonna improve past a certain point because under resistance only, they were not gonna free the mind and learn to feel it. They were fighting their way through everything and thus not learning to feel their way out of things.

Which group are you in?

Aliveness is often divided into three parts; Introduction, Isolation, Integration (yes I know, I hate these inventive slogans too). My claim is that you spend way too much time in the Isolation phase, when it is learning to integrate the techniques that is the important part. Damn, if I weren't so mentally lazy at the moment, I would explain why you can't make all the comparisons that you do, and explain the big differences.
And come on "they were not gonna free the mind and learn to feel it"... that's the bullshit we are trying to get rid of. Besides, dividing something into only two groups is called a false dichotomy. And no one is claiming only to spar.

So talking shit about chi sau is talking shit about sensitivity training, which is part of wrestling, so that means you are dissing BJJ/Wrestling. Maybe you want to dis just our version of it.

Chi Sau without also doing sparring is another issue. Some CHunners are guilty of this, even in WT, but it clear calls for it in the WT Kuen, going back to 1974. If Running dog or Thonass D. didn't get to spar in their school, well then good for them for quiting it, as it wasn't following the lesson plan.

Hmm...your "logic" is so way beyond me that I give up. Maybe when my head is a little clearer, since I got a flu at the moment.

[black mariah]

Holy christ on toast, this thread still exists?

Fuckin' wow. I figured it would have died months ago.

Good to see the fight against grievous UNNERY is still going on.

Stay the course.

[DevonHartigan]

Holy christ on toast, this thread still exists?

Fuckin' wow. I figured it would have died months ago.

Good to see the fight against grievous UNNERY is still going on.

Stay the course.

Considering that this thread is just a little over a week old, I find this kind of paradoxical;)

[Tonuzaba]

Holy christ on toast, black mariah is still alive?

Fuckin' wow. I figured it would have died months ago.

Good to see the fight against grievous ARROGANT STUPIDITY is still going on.

Stay the course.

See, just a little change and your post got some sense, meaning and a justification to take up precious Bullshido space.
Which is a space to be used for and by people who are able to read, understand what they read, check the thread starting date and stuff like that.
I'm sure you're glad to see me back here again too...:pool:

[Torakaka]

Considering that this thread is just a little over a week old, I find this kind of paradoxical;)

Well, Dr Tzun Tzu made an almost identical thread to this one some months ago

[DevonHartigan]

Well, Dr Tzun Tzu made an almost identical thread to this one some months ago

I thought it was something like that. I guess you are talking about this thread http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35172

The video from that thread made me so much dumber.

[PPlate]

A)numerous former world and national champions form the sports you people love so much CAME TO WT for something more (why would they do that?)(hint:None from BJJ, becuase BJJ allready has Chi Sau, i.e. reflex training not relieing on visual cortex))

Can you list the names of a few of the "numerous former world and national champions", and proof?

B) WT won NUMEROUS full contact venues in the 1970's and 1980's. WC won many before that.

What are these numerous full contact venues? What were the many tournaments that WC won before that? Please list a few and the proof that it is so.

I would be the first to try to find out how these guys trained and the technique they used to defeat their opponents if it is indeed so. I will even take up the brand of WC that they trained in, and I mean this sincerely.

Please watch the video and notice that his training portions and demos show exactly the same methods as the sport fighting. This is another notion, that we somehow don't fight as we train, which this video in particlular covers nicely.

Please tell us the timeframe in the video which shows the training portions and demos, and tell us the timeframe where these methods are replicated when he fought in the boxing match. This is so that we all know what you're referring to exactly.

example: the fact that there COULD BE many reasons why a world champion MT like Stephen Fox would become a WT, the MOST LIKELY reason is that they found it improved their MA. I find it hard to believe he would waste his training time on crap. and he is of the highest authority on MT, due to being a Champion yes?

Stephen Fox trains WT??

Anyway I find it strange that you need to use a champion of another art to validate your art. You would not hear a MT guy having to say Buakaw trains in TKD (just kidding) thus MT is a valid art.

[Virus]

Thomas Paine once said "The best government is that which governs least". This is not unlike a general sentiment expressed by our resident chunners, who believe that "The best _ing _un, is that which has the least _ing _un." This is shown in the supposed video footage of "r34l" _ing. It basically looks like boxing, and combined with the fact that we KNOW the person boxed, it's not too much of a stretch to say that they are using...um...t3h b0xing.

What does all this have to do with Thomas Paine? Well a chap by the name of Henry David Thoreau thought Paine's statement didn't go far enough, and following his anarchist principles said "The best government is that which governs not at all". One could say that, given the evidence presented, that "The best _ing _un is that which contains no _ing _un at all."

[M1K3]

[Tomas Drgon]

This post makes a lot of sense.

I suggest the moderators delete it to keep this thread "homogenous"...
:)

Tomas