WT in MMA

[Dagon Akujin]

Yeah, it was :)

Kid, I love how even when I agree with you, you can jump on me and point out why I'm an idiot. :jerk:

I'll put it this way: In good boxing, you don't do that. In "good" _ing _un, you are still supposed to (note that I put "good" in quotes because in _ing _un it's a much more subjective term and you don't get "Hey, did you see that awesome _ing _un match last night?"). That's all. And I'm certainly in no way saying that it's something "unique" or "prideful", which is why I said experienced fighters would not respond the same way as the guy in the vid, and that it wasn't the guy's "style" that won for him.

*wink wink* I really hope I'm not missing something this time.

Dagon

[ChanceDuBois]

Alan Orr's guys are doing well with wing chun in MMA at the moment. Neil Broadbent is a very dangerous puncher indeed.

Of course it's not going to look like chi sau and forms- that is the most basic of the basics. Wing chun applied is just a Chinese boxing style typically showing good body structure allowing powerful and connected punching without compromising balance. It is similar to MMA punching more than boxing. A good WC fighter is hard to take down. Elbows down allows good force transmission mechanics from the ground without reaching or committing weight.

If you try to use regular boxing in MMA you get taken down because your weight is too high. When this is adapted into MMA punching (more rooted, more elbows down) I see no people have probs saying that the striking is from boxing. I should be the same with wing chun. It isn't the fault of the system that most people like to stand knock kneed and do SNT all day.

[Tonuzaba]

Don't believe that just because someone does Boxing, Bjj, judo ect that they have a full understanding of the concept of aliveness and the differences between an alive and a dead art. There are elite level athletes that "swear by" bunk like magnetic bracelets that have absolutly no basis in scientific medicine.

That's right.
To fully understand the concept of aliveness, you must be on a special list managed and owned by Virus.
:5shocking

[Virus]

It isn't the fault of the system that most people like to stand knock kneed and do SNT all day.

Yes it is because that's what wing chun is and always has been. The people that say "the real wing chun was supposed to be like boxing" are practicing historical revision.

Find one citation before 1993 from a WT source that says it's supposed to be like boxing.

[Virus]

That's right.
To fully understand the concept of aliveness, you must be on a special list managed and owned by Virus.
:5shocking

You miss the pointz0r. Don't make me bust out the lightbulb jokes.

[Tonuzaba]

Don't believe that just because someone does Boxing, Bjj, judo ect that they have a full understanding of the concept of aliveness and the differences between an alive and a dead art. There are elite level athletes that "swear by" bunk like magnetic bracelets that have absolutly no basis in scientific medicine.

Yep, it was a mildly provoking joke...
Still, what makes you fit to judge the level of understanding of the concept of aliveness by elite atheletes who achieved many victories which are - according to you - only possible to achieve adhering to the named concept?
How do you decide which boxer or BJJ trainee does and which doesn't have a full understanding of it?
Not provoking this time, asking to know.



*and I made a preventive lightbulb joke via smilie to beat you to it...*

[knuckle dragger]

I still do not see how Wing Tsun has anything to do with that match. I could turn around and say that every leg movement that guy does is a practical application of TKD footwork, and it would be the same argument. In the end, it looks like boxing is boxing is boxing.

Good point!

All striking looks the same once you really start fighting. I have been to lots of tournaments. My brother and I would attend open tournaments and you would have Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Wing Chun and even Wushu. It all looks the same. Except for looking at their uniforms, once the sparring began you could not tell them apart. The only variation I have ever been able to detect is stance. Or maybe someone will attempt a single exotic technique that is unique to a certain style. Like that weird kick that the Wushu guys do. Really though, the human body has a natural movement to it, in the heat of battle when you are trying to take the other guys head off and he is doing the same it is normal to hook big punches and weave and clinch etc. It is not normal to adopt unnatural stances and follow rigid punching rules. I also studied Wing Chun for one summer. Then I realized it was all theory. A mostly incorrect theory.

To the Wing Chun person- the only way you are ever going to put this issue to rest is to enter an open tournament and try your style against other strikers of different styles. This is what you should do. It will be good for you.

Most of the traditional styles suck just as much as Wing Chun. Basically if you don't see it in Pride or the UFC it is not real.

[Cullion]

Yes it is because that's what wing chun is and always has been. The people that say "the real wing chun was supposed to be like boxing" are practicing historical revision.

Find one citation before 1993 from a WT source that says it's supposed to be like boxing.

What's your Wing Chun experience Virus ?

[Tonuzaba]

I also studied Wing Chun for one summer. Then I realized it was all theory. A mostly incorrect theory.

One summer means a hellofa lot of experience...:angry7:
And just so you know - most people here who think wing chun sucks big ass claim that the theory of wing chun is good.
It's just that according to them wing chun people are unable to bring those theories to life...

[Virus]

What's your Wing Chun experience Virus ?

None. I'm saying wing chun never used to be like boxing. Either that's true or it isn't. My personal training in wing chun, or lack of it, is irrelevant.

Anyone got any old wing chun manuscripts showing boxing style techniques?

[Virus]

Yep, it was a mildly provoking joke...
Still, what makes you fit to judge the level of understanding of the concept of aliveness by elite atheletes who achieved many victories which are - according to you - only possible to achieve adhering to the named concept?
How do you decide which boxer or BJJ trainee does and which doesn't have a full understanding of it?
Not provoking this time, asking to know.



*and I made a preventive lightbulb joke via smilie to beat you to it...*

Yeah no problem Ton. I gotta remember you sometimes do that.

Basically your post is a strawman. I'm saying that when you walk into a boxing gym, they don't sit you down and explain what aliveness is. They don't explain why they don't use dead patterns like in kung fu. Many of them would pick up the idea intuitively but that's not guaranteed.

[Torakaka]

One summer means a hellofa lot of experience...:angry7:
And just so you know - most people here who think wing chun sucks big ass claim that the theory of wing chun is good.
It's just that according to them wing chun people are unable to bring those theories to life...

What's this theory that wing chun has that people think is good? Shitty punching mechanics? Barely useful "trapping" range training that could be better spent learning how to deal with the clinch? Anti-grapple (lol) ? Centerline whatsawhoseit?

Bleep bleep blip bloop, I don't think people give wing chun nearly as much credit as you seem to think.

[Tom Kagan]

Find one citation before 1993 from a WT source that says it's supposed to be like boxing.

Do you mean something like 'The Boxer Rebellion of 1899' or do you mean something quoted from Black Belt Magazine?

Anyone got any old wing chun manuscripts showing boxing style techniques?

Do you mean something like Dr. Leung Jan's personal notes which some charitably call a book, or something else?


:smile:

[DCS]

Yes it is because that's what wing chun is and always has been. The people that say "the real wing chun was supposed to be like boxing" are practicing historical revision.

Find one citation before 1993 from a WT source that says it's supposed to be like boxing.

Old school boxing looks chunish.

Pics:





Video:
Mike Leonard vs. Jack Cushing
James J. Corbett vs. Peter Courtney

Article:
From Bare-Knuckles to Modern Boxing
How Gloves have changed the Art of Pugilism

[Tom Kagan]

DCS,

There are people who have speculated for decades the 'nun-who-must-not-be-named' style was either influenced or derived from the fistacuffs brought to southern China's port cities by the English when trade opened up.

I can't say I agree with them, but I have not bothered to examine and cross check their theories and references, either.