Stop trashing styles

[Uechidude]

Amazing post filled with cliche'd misconceptions, but I will take this opportunity to point out that 3 point blocking is one of the most pointless drills. Right up their with 3 step sparring, 3 finger pushups, and other such assorted useless krotty stuff involving the number 3.

Im rather partial to the 3 shots of tequila.
3 hot babes in the bed.
3 straight wins of the lottery.
You see, 3 can be good, and useful.

[Virus]

Hmmm, a guy calling for us to stop trashing other styles, and he trains in this:

[Iscariot]

Hmmm, a guy calling for us to stop trashing other styles, and he trains in this:

I'm not up to date on my American terminology, is that Square Dancing or Line Dancing?

[Ke?poFist]

Im rather partial to the 3 shots of tequila.
3 hot babes in the bed.
3 straight wins of the lottery.
You see, 3 can be good, and useful.

Well, 3 is actually an ancient Ninja number. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQCgxpSRP5M

I suppose I'm just jealous.

[sdave]

I know a badass guy who I train with who I have never seen even break a sweat beating nearly anyone in sparring regardless of ruleset. I'd say he's the toughest mother F-er I know, but if you ask him, he'll tell you he isn't worth shit until he makes the time to dedicate himself and get in the ring. Until he's got that belt around his waist, he refuses to acknowledge his badassness, and chooses to instead call us who are repeatedly tooled by him, 'bitches' :P

Well, you're a 'known quantity', and ostensibly, we could go to your gym and meet this guy. That alone should take him out of the subset of ph4n+0m f1gh+3rs I mentioned above. He should get bonus points for maintaining his apparent humility until he whips Fedor...

[waxteeth]

Do you seriously think you could take on modern MMA fighters by using a bite or eye gouge? The shoot happens, you get a split second to sprawl and if you don't you are on your back. They get mount and the eye gouge won't help you as you can't reach thier face, let alone do it while they rain bombs down on you. Have you ever trained with a BJJer? I'm guessing not.

Is the question what one style is better than the others OR was the OP saying each style has it merits and rules favor the style?

Example:

What if we put a BJJ guy in a boxing ring with a top ranked boxer and use boxing rules?

Submissions, chokes, leg kicks, sweeps, takedowns..all illegal moves in the ring...rules favor the boxer here right? It would not mean BJJ sucks when he likely gets KO'd.

I might be misunderstanding....

[CanucKyokushin]

In the end, folks, we're all limited in the styles we practice by the fact that you simply cannot practice true to the end game of hard combat without causing severe injury or death. All of us, from whatever the style are taught, have technigues in the arsenal which cannot be used in sport. Saying that one style is better than another, without the implementation of all the angles of each is baloney. It's akin to saying I'll fight you with one hand behind my back. Be serious. Like I said at the beginning, I'll take my little Iranian shotokan brown belt in a life or death street fight over 99% of the morons claiming supremacy of style on this site, any day - and I'll give you odds.

Most styles don't generally limit themselves since after all these styles I'm thinkng of general spar,roll and compete.

Lets' look at a list of Isshin Ryu sparring on youtube shall we.

[Ke?poFist]

Well, you're a 'known quantity', and ostensibly, we could go to your gym and meet this guy. That alone should take him out of the subset of ph4n+0m f1gh+3rs I mentioned above. He should get bonus points for maintaining his apparent humility until he whips Fedor...

Well he does understand one thing that seemingly every "we don't compete for sport" martial art wannabe doesn't, and thats you never know what you're capable of until you really do it. Beating me or anyone else in a friendly sparring match usually implies at least somewhat the pulling of punches and kicks, or at the very least doesn't involve that killer instinct that a real fight or ring fight provides.

Until you goes all out balls out in the MMA ring, and prove to yourself what you're truly capable of against a competent adversary you just simply will never know. Unfortunately at the current state I lack both the financial capability as well as the testicular fortitude to throw my hat into the cage. But who knows, perhaps someday in the near future.

[sdave]

Is the question what one style is better than the others OR was the OP saying each style has it merits and rules favor the style?

Example:

What if we put a BJJ guy in a boxing ring with a top ranked boxer and use boxing rules?

Submissions, chokes, leg kicks, sweeps, takedowns..all illegal moves in the ring...rules favor the boxer here right? It would not mean BJJ sucks when he likely gets KO'd.

I might be misunderstanding....

Yup, under a striking ruleset a grappler might be at a disadvantage.

HOWEVER:

Second, the term Vale Tudo translated from Portugese means anything goes. In the Vale Tudo matches the Gracies' fought in Brazil, biting and eye-gouging were indeed allowed.

When there were NO RULES, strikers with no grappling skill didn't do as well...

In the early UFC, eye gouges, head stomps, groin strikes and hair pulling were all legal. Check out the results at a Blockbuster Video near you.

[sasquatch989]

I'm an idiot who got beat by an Iranian midget who did shotokan, therefore it is the fact that he was an Iranian midget that all styles must be respected

Following your logic it would then be concluded that YOU are a shitty martial artist, since you were whooped my an Iranian midget, afterall. And since you as are a shitty martial artist, I think that your opinion is crap.

[CanucKyokushin]

DOH! You got me!

It seems to get worse.

Tournament fighting.

...against kickboxing

...against kyokushin.Their mortal rivals.


You knows ?Maybe I misspelled Isshin Ryu.

[Ke?poFist]

Is the question what one style is better than the others OR was the OP saying each style has it merits and rules favor the style?

Example:

What if we put a BJJ guy in a boxing ring with a top ranked boxer and use boxing rules?

Submissions, chokes, leg kicks, sweeps, takedowns..all illegal moves in the ring...rules favor the boxer here right? It would not mean BJJ sucks when he likely gets KO'd.

I might be misunderstanding....

He was saying that every style has its upside and downside, as well as saying that various fighting venues offer advantages to certain styles due to rulesets. Unfortunately placing a submission grappler in a boxing ring under boxing rules is a piss poor analogy to placing a spitting, eye-gouging, groin gripping wannabe against a trained MMA fighter under an MMA ruleset.

The reasons why this is a bad analogy is because while the first situation displays a fighter having his entire combat repetoire being restricted, the latter displays someone who trains in a martial art but cops out on the 5-10% of his training that actually utilizes such techniques. Where is the rest of the moves that they practice day in and day out that are actually legal in a MMA venue?

On top of this, the "dirty tactics" and "vital strikes" espouses have for the most part been long disproven to be effective. As stated earlier, Brazilian Vale Tudo matches often allowed such nonesense, and in fact the first few UFCs did as well until the boxing commissions and PC politicians got their hands on it. Despite this, those that trained in solid arts consistently came out on top, with the Gracies making a legendary name for themselves in Brazil.

In closing, I also still have my offer standing to have anyone in the NY area that thinks they will drop me with goin kicking, pinching and other such to come down to our TD and show me in person on me. I have an open mind, but have yet to see it, so I offer myself as a demonstration dummy....just a dummy that will punch your teeth in if it doesn't work.

[Odacon]

T%his thread is horrible.

[waxteeth]

When there were NO RULES, strikers with no grappling skill didn't do as well...

In the early UFC, eye gouges, head stomps, groin strikes and hair pulling were all legal. Check out the results at a Blockbuster Video near you.

A few things:

I know early UFC very well.

It actually brings up more questions for me as to why the UFC has guys now that are pretty successful primarily striking (like the big fight in a few days). I even asked this question in another forum and the answer I got was Chuck has a great sprawl and forces guys to stand up? ?? Why did Monson loose? Also Pride seems to have some devastating strikers......You have to be well rounded in the MMA game is all I can figure but I think about these types of questions.

But before you get the wrong Idea I'm very pro grappling. In fact (this is ironic) when I did a search on the BJJ School I'll be going to starting next month you came up as saying the teacher was the real deal when somebody asked.

So I'm not for any regimented "belt ceremony", predominantly kata base schools or anything.......I'm just fuzzy on what exactly the OP was trying to say.

[plasma]

Invited to speak as a newbie, I'll speak. It's the person, not the style that wins. One of the toughest martial artists I ever met was a sub-5-0' Iranian who trained shotokan. He was a brown belt when I knew him, but I'd take him in a brawl anytime, anywhere. Heart of friggin' lion, with one shot power that was scary. He told me his instructor had them throw straight kicks for hours until they fell down - nearly a 1000 a day. Needless to say, his front kick would bury you and it came very quick. I also used to do three point blocking with him and my arms shivered - and I was recruited Div. 1 as a wrestler and outweighed the little beast by 30 pounds.

So, as my current instructor says, it's all kick, block, punch, and wrestle. Buddha developed kung fu, which spread disparately in different forms in South Asia, Korea, Okinawa, and Japan (and then to Brasil!). Samurai philosophy and sword technique joined along sometime afterward on parallel track, probably with some cross pollination. Early karate featured defeats of judokan and ju jitsu fighters. A tougher breed of Karate practitioners, perhaps. Now ju jitsu and muay thai fighters claim supremacy. Modern kung fu seems reduced to ballet. But it's an age old, meaningless debate. Styles are meaningless, as the individual dedication is key. I'll take Mas Oyama in his prime against any Gracie or MMA fighter on the planet in a bare knuckle, no holds barred, fight. There's probably a couple of monks from Shoalin in the past that would trash them all. Not to mention O Sensai or Yip Man. There's also a certain Greco Roman heavy weight champ from Russia that might just stomp the piss out of many of them. Who knows? I don't think the particular style would control the outcome.

Anyway, you get my drift. Modern fighting rules favor styles. Muay Thai rules put gloves on karate fighters and boxers, whose best techniques utilize their hands, so they are left at a disadvantage to get pounded by lower leg techniques and knees, which are the center of the Muay Thai disclipline. I've never seen a Muay Thai fighter that could stand up to a truly good boxer, so put the pads on the shins and let the boxers have at it with only hard taped knuckles. See who wins. Also, wrestling is prohibited, so you can't simply trap and drag a Muay Thai fighter to the ground. MMA fights favor wrestlers and BBJ folks because the room to move is limited, and you can't strike the eyes, knees, or throat- and you can't bite, which is a wrestler's worst nightmare. Kyokushin is limited to the body (except for kicks, which can't go to the knees or the face), and you can't trap or wrestle. Even the closest of full contact styles, Vale Tudor, is limited because you can only pound on an ankle or a wrist, you can't bite through a wrist or an Achilles or stick your finger in an eye.

In the end, folks, we're all limited in the styles we practice by the fact that you simply cannot practice true to the end game of hard combat without causing severe injury or death. All of us, from whatever the style are taught, have technigues in the arsenal which cannot be used in sport. Saying that one style is better than another, without the implementation of all the angles of each is baloney. It's akin to saying I'll fight you with one hand behind my back. Be serious. Like I said at the beginning, I'll take my little Iranian shotokan brown belt in a life or death street fight over 99% of the morons claiming supremacy of style on this site, any day - and I'll give you odds.

I am going to rape you through the internet.