Stop trashing styles

[Mr. Jones]

Feador vs. o sensei LOL.

He's called great teacher. Do I need to explain to you the difference between a fighter and a teacher? The man was barely 5ft tall for christ sake.

[Lu Tze]

In short, you're wrong.

Rules do dictate strategies, that's true. But dirty tricks will not allow a bad fighter beat a good one, they just mean the bad fighter will lose worse.

Now there are certain styles that by virtue of their training philosophies consistently produce better fighters, as proven by the crucible of competition. So why shouldn't we trash the styles that are inefficient and ineffective, that are full of talk and short on action. That not only fail to produce decent competitors, but attempt to cover their inadequacies with talk of 'deadly moves' and 'dirty tricks'?

[ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE]

Invited to speak as a newbie, I'll speak. It's the person, not the style that wins.

If this is true whats the point fo any form of Martial Arts trainning? The variation in trainning across styles is enormous, do you really think that they all result in either not improving ones fighting ability or they all ahve a uniform effect.

One of the toughest martial artists I ever met was a sub-5-0' Iranian who trained shotokan. He was a brown belt when I knew him, but I'd take him in a brawl anytime, anywhere. Heart of friggin' lion, with one shot power that was scary. He told me his instructor had them throw straight kicks for hours until they fell down - nearly a 1000 a day. Needless to say, his front kick would bury you and it came very quick. I also used to do three point blocking with him and my arms shivered - and I was recruited Div. 1 as a wrestler and outweighed the little beast by 30 pounds.

So? The guy was a badass before he did the karate trainning, he did it and was a bit more of a badass, how do you know he wouldn't be an even better fighter if he had trained in something else?

So, as my current instructor says, it's all kick, block, punch, and wrestle. Buddha developed kung fu, which spread disparately in different forms in South Asia, Korea, Okinawa, and Japan (and then to Brasil!). Samurai philosophy and sword technique joined along sometime afterward on parallel track, probably with some cross pollination. Early karate featured defeats of judokan and ju jitsu fighters. A tougher breed of Karate practitioners, perhaps.

Or possibly they trained in a better way back then?

Now ju jitsu and muay thai fighters claim supremacy. Modern kung fu seems reduced to ballet.

Plenty of Kung Fu guys who don't do ballet anymore but this really seems to contradict your next point:

But it's an age old, meaningless debate. Styles are meaningless, as the individual dedication is key.

It doesn't matter how dedicated you are if all your going to practice is ballet then all your going to get good at is ballet.

I'll take Mas Oyama in his prime against any Gracie or MMA fighter on the planet in a bare knuckle, no holds barred, fight.

What, that guy that travelled the world fighting challenge matches, had a 4th dan(I think) in Judo and advocated full contact sparring with minimal padding? Yeah, if you read a little more I think you'd realise that not a lot of people on the board would disagree to much with you there.

There's probably a couple of monks from Shoalin in the past that would trash them all. Not to mention O Sensai or Yip Man. There's also a certain Greco Roman heavy weight champ from Russia that might just stomp the piss out of many of them. Who knows? I don't think the particular style would control the outcome.

Anyway, you get my drift. Modern fighting rules favor styles. Muay Thai rules put gloves on karate fighters and boxers, whose best techniques utilize their hands, so they are left at a disadvantage to get pounded by lower leg techniques and knees, which are the center of the Muay Thai disclipline. I've never seen a Muay Thai fighter that could stand up to a truly good boxer, so put the pads on the shins and let the boxers have at it with only hard taped knuckles. See who wins. Also, wrestling is prohibited, so you can't simply trap and drag a Muay Thai fighter to the ground. MMA fights favor wrestlers and BBJ folks because the room to move is limited, and you can't strike the eyes, knees, or throat- and you can't bite, which is a wrestler's worst nightmare. Kyokushin is limited to the body (except for kicks, which can't go to the knees or the face), and you can't trap or wrestle. Even the closest of full contact styles, Vale Tudor, is limited because you can only pound on an ankle or a wrist, you can't bite through a wrist or an Achilles or stick your finger in an eye.

So your saying that the style developed to work under a certain set of rules is the one that works best for that set if rules? Again not really that revolutionary, also the whole MMA favouring the wrestler/BJJ guy thing? Not held out so well if you look at the current champs in the UFC or pride.

In the end, folks, we're all limited in the styles we practice by the fact that you simply cannot practice true to the end game of hard combat without causing severe injury or death. All of us, from whatever the style are taught, have technigues in the arsenal which cannot be used in sport. Saying that one style is better than another, without the implementation of all the angles of each is baloney. It's akin to saying I'll fight you with one hand behind my back.

I'm curious about the analogy that you draw here, why is it akin to having one hand tied behnd your back?

Be serious. Like I said at the beginning, I'll take my little Iranian shotokan brown belt in a life or death street fight over 99% of the morons claiming supremacy of style on this site, any day - and I'll give you odds.

Yes. This part is certainly very original.

[hoodedmonk]

He's called great teacher. Do I need to explain to you the difference between a fighter and a teacher? The man was barely 5ft tall for christ sake.

Do I need to explain to you the difference between a man who has kicked a 100 peoples asses and one who has just wrote books about it?

[Ke?poFist]

Amazing post filled with cliche'd misconceptions, but I will take this opportunity to point out that 3 point blocking is one of the most pointless drills. Right up their with 3 step sparring, 3 finger pushups, and other such assorted useless krotty stuff involving the number 3.

[Virus]

The style most definatly matters. It's not the only thing, but it's a significant thing.

In order to demonstrate this, all you have to do is look at the development of MMA, through events like the UFC or Vale Tudo. if you havn't watched the first three UFC's I reccomend you do. You had a bunch of tough guys (with the exception of Fred Ettish) from a variety of martial arts. Kung-fu, karate, kajukembo, kickboxing ect. Now if the style didn't matter, why is the current UFC not still made up of kungfu men and ninjas and sumo wrestlers? The reason is they got h4x0red. They are proven poor delivery systems. If you waste your time training in things that can't be used in a fight, you aren't training to fight.

Please present evidence that early karateka defeated judoka. They must have used some long-lost ant1-gr4pp3l on them.

Do you seriously think you could take on modern MMA fighters by using a bite or eye gouge? The shoot happens, you get a split second to sprawl and if you don't you are on your back. They get mount and the eye gouge won't help you as you can't reach thier face, let alone do it while they rain bombs down on you. Have you ever trained with a BJJer? I'm guessing not.

[ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE]

Amazing post filled with cliche'd misconceptions, but I will take this opportunity to point out that 3 point blocking is one of the most pointless drills. Right up their with 3 step sparring, 3 finger pushups, and other such assorted useless krotty stuff involving the number 3.

Other crappy things involving three:

The holy trinity
The three musketeers
Any third movie. (X-Men-3, Blade trinity etc.)

[Ke?poFist]

The style most definatly matters. It's not the only thing, but it's a significant thing.

I personally feel conditioning and heart are greater factors, but I'll save that debate for another thread.

In order to demonstrate this, all you have to do is look at the development of MMA, through events like the UFC or Vale Tudo. if you havn't watched the first three UFC's I reccomend you do. You had a bunch of tough guys (with the exception of Fred Ettish) from a variety of martial arts. Kung-fu, karate, kajukembo, kickboxing ect.

There was a Kaju guy in the first 3 UFC's??? I gotta go check my DVD's now.

Now if the style didn't matter, why is the current UFC not still made up of kungfu men and ninjas and sumo wrestlers? The reason is they got h4x0red. They are proven poor delivery systems. If you waste your time training in things that can't be used in a fight, you aren't training to fight

But MMA favors BBJ and Wrestling! They only win because it's not a deathmatch, there's no items for improvised weapons around, no broken glass, no lava and definately no friends to kick the guys head in to save your ass from getting choked unconscious! Cheaters I say! Cheaters!

Do you seriously think you could take on modern MMA fighters by using a bite or eye gouge? The shoot happens, you get a split second to sprawl and if you don't you are on your back. They get mount and the eye gouge won't help you as you can't reach thier face, let alone do it while they rain bombs down on you. Have you ever trained with a BJJer? I'm guessing not.

Hah! train with BJJers!? Why don't I just go star in a gay porno!? Then I'll at least be getting paid for it!

[Virus]

The style doesn't matter! Let's just all quit martial arts and lift weights and go on steriods. Then we'll have t3h d34dly roid rage plus insane amounts of strength and power. That's the real anti-grapple.

[jnp]

mhall, you're 'facts' are a jumble of many prevalent myths in the MA world today. So wrong, in fact, that it seems none of us have the energy to set you right. I certainly don't.

Here are a few corrections to help you along your way.

First, as Phrost stated, the Buddha never learned or taught martial arts. His Dharma heir, Bodhidharma, probably taught some yoga to the Chinese when he emigrated, but that is all any legitimate historian will state with any certainty. Here is a thread that explains more in the Martial Arts History Project forum.

Second, the term Vale Tudo translated from Portugese means anything goes. In the Vale Tudo matches the Gracies' fought in Brazil, biting and eye-gouging were indeed allowed.

Welcome to Bullshido and enjoy your stay.

[polishillusion]

The style doesn't matter! Let's just all quit martial arts and lift weights and go on steriods. Then we'll have t3h d34dly roid rage plus insane amounts of strength and power. That's the real anti-grapple.

wrong.... the only real anti grapple is guns and possibly ninja skillz.

[sdave]

tl;dr

It seems like these guys always know some 'aw3s0m3 b4d4$$ f1gh+3r' who can destroy any opponent, but who, oddly enough, has no verifiable record and is completely unknown to anyone else, anywhere...

[Axelton]

There was a Kaju guy in the first 3 UFC's??? I gotta go check my DVD's now.

yes, Don Frye.

[Ke?poFist]

tl;dr

It seems like these guys always know some 'aw3s0m3 b4d4$$ f1gh+3r' who can destroy any opponent, but who, oddly enough, has no verifiable record and is completely unknown to anyone else, anywhere...

I know a badass guy who I train with who I have never seen even break a sweat beating nearly anyone in sparring regardless of ruleset. I'd say he's the toughest mother F-er I know, but if you ask him, he'll tell you he isn't worth shit until he makes the time to dedicate himself and get in the ring. Until he's got that belt around his waist, he refuses to acknowledge his badassness, and chooses to instead call us who are repeatedly tooled by him, 'bitches' :P

[Virus]

You better pheer teh ninja skillz.

A quote from a bujinkan forum:

It doesn't matter how well or poorly a Bujinkan fighter would do in a UFC/MMA competition, the true ninja should avoid such displays. Hatsumi-sensei says over and over "don't let the opponent see your techniques": usually he means this in the context of a man-to-man fight. But I think it would do a diservice to all Bujinkan practioners to expose ninpo to too much scrutiny by fighters from other styles: it would negate much of our advantage in real-world combat. Don't show off in the Octagon... just survive/win/prevail/endure in the real world for your own sake and the sake of those you choose to protect....