A thought

[Maximillian]

'If you knew someone who had been practicing martial arts for a decade and they couldn't correctly recall the basic terminolgy in their art, how much stock would you place in their technique? Their teaching?'

seems logical, but the essential premise of your arguement is flawed. labeling is absolutely a periphereal activity. i know quite a few very skilled martial artists who cannot explain what they do and how they do it, nor do they have names for their actions either.

the proof is in the pudding.

talking<doing

in short, no.

in reverse, i have met more people who could squawk terminology and could not perform than i can remember.

[LI GUY 1]

Hey Takeda, I beleive there will be a NYC Throwdown next month early January. No New Yorkers that I have seen have had problems with you so far but would you come down? We could video you sparring/demoing whatever and put it up, case solved, either you suck or you don't.

If you don't come no problem as I doubt I would ever travel to Virginia myself, but offer is open.

[Gezere]

seems logical, but the essential premise of your arguement is flawed. labeling is absolutely a periphereal activity. i know quite a few very skilled martial artists who cannot explain what they do and how they do it, nor do they have names for their actions either.

Your rebuttal is flawed. I bet you that you "very skilled martial artists" can indeed explain what they. Its MA not rocket science. As far as names go. Would you go to a doctor who doesn't know the names of the things he is working on? or the medication he prescribes? MA isn't as serious as that but for someone to say, 'Hey I've been doing this for 10 yrs.' Its not unreasonable at all to expect them to know the names of the techniques in an established curriculum.

the proof is in the pudding.[/qoute]
True but one should know the ingredients of the pudding.


[qoute]in reverse, i have met more people who could squawk terminology and could not perform than i can remember.

Very true as well, BUT I give it to them for actually knowing what they are talking about, that suppose to be part of being a yudansha.

[MONGO]

MONGO,
Ever heard of Oshikiuchi? You know the art Siago Tanom Chikamasa Of the Aizu taught to Sogaku?
Lots of links go back to Takeda Shingin, I think his Samurai fought a battle or 2, on there way to conquest of Japan.
GREAT Avatar by the way.

The accepted uses for Oshikiuchi or whatever the translation is supposed to be, is for less violent protection purposes. The techniques are for body guards-------not the battlefield. Hence the non-violent nature of aikijujutsu/aikido.

And if you want to play that logic route, Ten Shinryo ryu and Kito ryu traces their lineages into battlefield martial arts since the 17th century. Since Judo was spawned by Kano's mastery of those 2 arts (and Judo eventually led to BJJ) they are therefore battlefield tested by your logic and above your reproach. Kito-ryu and Ten Shinryo Ryu are documented "Battlefield" arts in Japan.

[It is Fake]

You would be right maxi but, there is a huge flaw in your argument.

Taxeda brought the terminology into play himself. He used it as a device to show his importance and knowledge of SCJJ, judo, and aikido.

So far, both have been lacking.

I think knowing terminology is entirely up to the practitioner. Yes, it has nothing to do with fighting ability. If you bring it up in the course of a conversation, misspell words, use incorrect technique names, describe wrong techniques it makes you sound like a beginner.

Add to this fact the OP claims 10 years experience, it becomes a factor in forming a legitimate argument.

[MacWombat]

'If you knew someone who had been practicing martial arts for a decade and they couldn't correctly recall the basic terminolgy in their art, how much stock would you place in their technique? Their teaching?'

seems logical, but the essential premise of your arguement is flawed. labeling is absolutely a periphereal activity. i know quite a few very skilled martial artists who cannot explain what they do and how they do it, nor do they have names for their actions either.

the proof is in the pudding.

talking<doing

in short, no.

in reverse, i have met more people who could squawk terminology and could not perform than i can remember.

I could see you saying you know a few martial artists or fighters who don't know the name of the techniques but can kick ass. However, if you are in a single martial art for 10 years or however long it takes to get to 2nd degree black belt, you should know the fucking terms. I'm not talking about an MMA guy that can apply a lot of moves but doesn't know the names of all of them because of his spread out knowledge (per se), I'm talking about a practicionar of a traditional art who specializes and does not know that knowledge. If I get a black belt in BJJ and I don't know what a kimura or an oma plata are, I'm an idiot or a liar.

[LolodesBois]

Well I'm glad to see Takeda is being owned by Asia. He actually made me lost my nerve in newbietown saying Ueshiba was a 2nd Dan and that Prannin was spreading lies on Aikido's history.

And since when does practicing dangerously and with a mean spirit (sunking in chokes, blinding pain Major accidents) is a proof of an art being more effective ?

[It is Fake]

Since his teacher told him so. You know, teachers never exagerate or lie.

[El Neko]

And if you want to play that logic route, Ten Shinryo ryu and Kito ryu traces their lineages into battlefield martial arts since the 17th century. Since Judo was spawned by Kano's mastery of those 2 arts (and Judo eventually led to BJJ) they are therefore battlefield tested by your logic and above your reproach. Kito-ryu and Ten Shinryo Ryu are documented "Battlefield" arts in Japan.

does this mean BJJ and Judo FTW?

[LolodesBois]

Well as Asia said we should now refer to BJJ as Batlefield Ju-jitsu since the combative arts based on BJJ have been use on the MODERN battlefied....

[El Neko]

MONGO,
Ever heard of Oshikiuchi? You know the art Siago Tanom Chikamasa Of the Aizu taught to Sogaku?
Lots of links go back to Takeda Shingin, I think his Samurai fought a battle or 2, on there way to conquest of Japan.
GREAT Avatar by the way.

Tanomo Saigo (1830-1903 who later changed his name to Chikanori Hoshina, is also linked to Shiro Saigo one of the heavenly lords of Judo)

there's a great article in www.bestjudo.com that talks about Shiro Saigo and his link (or lack of) to Daito Ryu, here's a little part of it

Now, we need to see what possible connection Sokaku had with Shiro Saigo, to determine if it is reasonable to assume that Shiro Saigo ever learned Daito-ryu.

The connection is to be found in the name of Tanomo Saigo (1830-1903 who later changed his name to Chikanori Hoshina). Shiro Saigo was the illegitimate son of Tanomo Saigo according to some sources, who in any case adopted Shiro.

Chikanori was the chief councillor and governor-general of the Aizu clan. He was thus a quite politically powerful and important man. It is an historical fact that Sokaku Takeda spent some time with Chikanori, learning what Sokaku called "Oshikiuchi". Leaving what that may have been until later, the theory is that Soemon taught, not his son Sokichi, who would teach Sokaku... but that Soemon taught Chikanori, who admittedly *did* teach Sokaku Takeda something.

The problems with this theory are several, and the main problem is that the deduction is being made that Chikanori is a martial arts master not based on historical evidence, but on the fact that he is closely connected to two martial geniuses. His son Shiro Saigo, and the founder of Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda. This seems to be akin to placing the cart before the horse. As Stanley Pranin points out:

"Chikanori Hoshina's life is well-documented and even his diary has been preserved. Hoshina scholars have, however, found no evidence of Chikanori having undergone any extensive martial arts training or having taught such arts. Had Chikanori been a skilled martial artist in his own right, surely some record of his talents and exploits would have survived." (Ref #5)

If you accept that Chikanori was *not* a martial artist, and non-Daito-ryu history certainly doesn't proclaim him one, then what is "Oshikiuchi"? It is the testimony of Sokaku Takeda that he learned Oshikiuchi from Chikanori. One of the better discussions of this point is:

"A further unresolved issue is the matter of the term used historically to refer to Daito-ryu techniques transmitted within the Aizu clan. Tokimune and others have written that Sokaku learned secret techniques called oshikiuchi and that it was these arts that form the essence of Daito-ryu. The characters used for oshikiuchi, "o" (an honorific) + "shiki" (ceremony) + "uchi" (inside),, represent a rather curious combination and do not convey any obvious meaning. They were probably recorded based on the oral testimony of Sokaku who was himself illiterate. One theory is that the correct Chinese characters are actually,, "o" (an honorific) + "shikii" (threshold) + "uchi" (inside). According to this view, what was actually referred to as oshikiuchi were not martial techniques at all, but rather the court etiquette or manners that trusted subjects of the inner circle who were allowed "inside the threshold" were expected to observe. If this is indeed the case, what Chikanori Hoshina taught Sokaku during the latter's visits had to do with matters of samurai etiquette." (Ref #6)

Another reference to this same point is:

(Ref #7)

(For those who don't know any Japanese, the difference between the verbal pronunciation of "Oshikiuchi" and "Oshikiiuchi" is small! It's a lengthened "i" sound, instead of the short 'i' sound. Japanese is a language where it can frequently not be possible to know the meaning of a word without seeing the written form.)

So if Chikanori is not known to history as a martial artist, and did indeed teach samurai etiquette to Sokaku Takeda, we are left without anyone to teach Daito-ryu to Chikanori's son, Shiro Saigo. Shiro Saigo did not have any known historical contact with Sokaku Takeda...

http://bestjudo.com/article15.shtml

Mongo or Asia, can you check this out and see how legitimate this claims are? (regarding Oshikiuchi mostly)

[jnp]

Well as Asia said we should now refer to BJJ as Batlefield Ju-jitsu since the combative arts based on BJJ have been use on the MODERN battlefied....

I prefer his older definition, Basically Just Judo, but that's only because it REALLY annoys the nutriders.

[Takeda]

Pauli,

For some reason, I can't PM you, so here is something for you. You can contact me at martialstrength@gmail.com

[Dirty Rooster]

My point in the age of the art, is many think BJJ invented grappling or some dumb shit like that. It's a brawling sport art, AikiJujutsu was used on battlefeilds.

Wishful thinking?

I always make a point of disagreeing when I read this 'battlefield' bollocks.

[MONGO]

does this mean BJJ and Judo FTW?

BJJ and Judo always win. 'Cause Jigoro Kano = Jesus of martial arts. :biblethum