Does wrestling really OWN the traditional arts?

[Amir]

The same boring argument once again

Can't anyone here find something more interesting ?

Wrestling isn't superior to TMA, the wrestlers commonly are superior to the TMA practitioner. Just like you wouldn't beat a professional racing driver in a race or an Olympic swimmer in a swimming race (even if it were in the ocean).

99.9% of the TMA people (I am not including Judo in this context) train as amateurs, of the 0.1% that remains at least 99% train to become teachers not fighters. On the other hand, in the martial sports - Wrestling, Boxing, Judo. There are athletes training to win a fight, they are working at it much harder. Only the best talented among them remain as the coaches have no interest in teaching "low potential" students.

This gives those professional a great advantage over the amateur. After all, the techniques are very similar, and the same principles apply. So the better trained man has the best chance of winning, and in most cases, this would be the athlete.


Amir

[fuzzie]

Defining traditional.. Well in my book a TMA is a MA that will not change despite
evidence of better more efficiant techniques. A TMA keeps its "moves" because
thats how it has always been done, and thats how it always should be done.

Example.. traditional karate punching vs. a boxers right cross.
No contest.

1995's two-leg takedown, pushing your opponent backwards. This technique has
been replaced by the two-leg takedown pushing your opponent to the side,
so instead of ending up in guard, you end up in side-control. A TMA wouldnt
change this technique. Because grandmaster Chi-Hard-Wang said the original was
best.

Well, thats how i define traditional in the MA.



Edited by - fuzzie on July 28 2003 10:55:15

[The Wastrel]

Fuzzie has the same definition that I do.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

[fuzzie]

Fuzzie has the same definition that I do.

Woo! I feel an omnipotent surge of Ego rising inside me!
Yup. Me and Wastrel agree about it. Yup yup.
Ill just go and tell everyone in every topic now. Yup.
Me and Wastrel. Yup. Thats the ticket.

[Fisting Kittens]

I agree with Merc to a point. In a full on confrontation with intent to kill or maim, I will rely 100% on my striking training. But I still do judo and BJJ. why? Well most encounters in which I will need to use my training will be better ended via grappling than stirking. When I get into a fight in a bar, do I want to maim him or just choke him out? Even that mugger is better choked out or armlocked than killed. Never play around with the moronic juries these days.

So I think that the argument that stikers are neutered in the ring is tired too, but for different reasons. I think its correct, but realistically outside of a battlefield, if a striker can't fight well without his super fucked up maim and kill techniques than he is poorly prepared for any real world encounter anyway.

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I have discovered the true essence of Bullshido: To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And hear the lamentation of their women.
In short: to flame.

[noodles]

FK -- can you please just cut and paste that post every time *another* striking vs grappling thread comes up?

[PizDoff]

nah, just send it to blade

:)




""Wrestling ISN'T a traditional martial art? I thought that was the most traditional in pretty much every country in existence (& in many that aren't anymore)..."

If it works in the ring there is no way it can be a TMA!!! Get with the program, n0ob!!!!!!!"


bwahahaahhaah! oh shit that was funny!

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
http://www.fightauthority.com/

"I'm going to have to kill myself to death now." Posted by deus ex machina July 26 2003.

[HAPKO3]

Much of the reason grappling beats traditional striking in a ring is that the entire format of the contest gives an advantage to the grappler, because his techniques are more readily adaptable to submitting an opponent, whereas a striker, restrained not only from the much maligned palm strikes to the nose and eye rakes, is also robbed of other potentially lethal attacks to vulnerable targets, whereas the wrestler is free to use any weapon in his arsenal against any legal target--I find not being able to break a man's wrist no fair trade-off for not being able to pull his hair back and chop him in the throat in terms of gauging the effectiveness of an art in uncontrolled conditions.

Bullshit.

Why do people repeat the same old tired falacy over and over again?

THere's plenty of video taped evidence of Vale Tudo fights in Brazil, Russia, and a number of other countries. In these fights, THERE ARE NO RULES. No rules at all. And sure enough, they play out just the same way as Pride/UFC fights do.

In fact, the UFC has been implementing rules (standups, shorter rounds, stalling penalties, etc.) SPECIFICLY TO GIVE STRIKERS A CHANCE. They are doing this because the audience pays to see a shitbeating, and not a 30 minute grappling match.

So please, pretty please with sugar on top, stop speaking out of your ass.

Oh, and by the way, I am primarily a striker. When I was first faced with this evidence, I rebelled, much like every striker rebells. It went agains everything I thought I knew about fighting and martial arts. Like it or not, though, it is the TRUTH.

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I remain, Hapko3

[HAPKO3]

Fisting Kittens : The problem with all of these supposedly deadly techniques is that they are not trained realisticly (for obvious reasons). It may very well be possible to kill people with throat punches as long as you execute the punch correctly. However, there's no way you or I could use it in a confrontation unless we go out and kill a few fully resisting people per week by throat punching them. Any technique, in order to be real-life effective (in the ring or on the street) needs to be trained with resistance and tested over and over again.

------------------------
I remain, Hapko3

[PeedeeShaolin]

Amen.

[Spunky]

In response to the weapon thing, I think that's a very good point. From my understanding, a lot of jujutsu for example is intended to create enough time and physical space to either get a weapon out (whether it be your own, the other guy's, or something from the environment) to finish him off with (while he is in a position from which it would be difficult to defend).

I think this is very pertinent to likely street situations. Personally, the only engagements I would be involved in are a) someone attacks me barehanded out of rage after I try to talk it down, b) someone marks me for deadly assault for whatever reason, or c) I am working a security job and have to forcefully remove someone from the premise.

Scenerio A should present no difficulty in creating some initial space, especially if he is an untrained fighter and doesn't know you are. Should I knock someone back or he goes to the ground, I am going to clearly show that I am making no offensive move against him. Why try to mount him or pin him in that situation? I would only make a move if he went to pull something, at which point I would assume he is going for a gun or blade, and I wouldn't do it barehanded. If he comes at me again, or maybe even a third time, he has clearly demonstrated unchecked aggression and you are allowed to use necessary force. It would be really challenging in a lawsuit to paint a bad picture of you for finally resorting to a nonlethal weapon on a third or forth attack.

Scenerio B, if there are weapons involved then there is little contest involved. If he has a gun leveled on you from more than a couple feet away, do what he says or hope he is a bad shot.

Scenerio C, you are perfectly justified to using a baton, pepperspray, and cuffs to restrain someone disturbing the safety of those around you.

[blue-dragon]

I train in Tang Soo Do and have learnt nothing about a single tournament rule and everything about what a potential attacker might do. A Striking style must in my opinion must teach how to counter a person trying to grapple you with its own grappling technique.
A person who wants to wrestle with you has to grab you, so wait for him to go for it. Hit him in the face or kick out his knee cap. Or just simply use his own rushing power to taking him down. Even on the ground a TMA student can fight if he has learnt how to apply a pressure point to get an opponent to loosen his grip. Or just do some bodybuilding to keep them off you so you can get on them and pound them. Who ever said you can't fight dirty and use other ideas than just whatever you sensei taught you. USE YOUR HEADS PEOPLE !!!!!

[fuzzie]

A person who wants to wrestle with you has to grab you, so wait for him to go for it. Hit him in the face or kick out his knee cap.

Actually, this is a frequently tried technique to stop takedowns. Now they havent
worked the last 500.000 times they have been tried, but hey, it _might_ work.
Jokes aside, a shootfighter or bjj-person uses his/her timing to determine when
to attack. This doesnt mean that all they do is try to grab you. Most bjj people
and shootfighters have no qualms about roundhousing you to next week.

Even on the ground a TMA student can fight if he has learnt how to apply a pressure point to get an opponent to loosen his grip.

Not the pressure point discussion again. I mean seriously. The fact that it is never tried in the ring in a "NHB tournament" (Pride, UFC etc, etc) should be enought proof that it doesnt work.. shouldnt it? I know in the early days of UFC several TMA doodz tried their "tiger style" in the ring and _failed miserably_! Of course they
then proceeded to make excuses.. "My hand hurt" .. "I was tired" BAH!

Or just do some bodybuilding to keep them off you so you can get on them and pound them.

Yes! This is true! If you take two people of equal skill but make one of them
much stronger, the stronger man/woman will win! But a person with _no_ grappling
skills who is strong will be helpless too against a wrestler that actually sparrs
against resisting opponents every train session. If you doubt me, bodybuild for
a year, then proceed to your closest Bjj acadamy and challenge the blue-belts.
I swear you will see the light. :)

[SLJ]

B.Dragon.

I insist you get yourself a "N00B" tattoo as soon as possible.

Statements like this gem -

"Or just do some bodybuilding to keep them off you so you can get on them and pound them."

are slightly ignorant.

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"I have the power!" - He-man. The most powerful man in the Universe.
(Short, sharp and to the point. Redefining the quotations of heros.)

[MMA_Phil]

Classic, blue-dragon, classic.