Advantages to under-leg guard pass?

[Teh El Macho]

I think I know which you are referring to. I'm getting "Passing the Guard" from amazon anytime soon. Still, I'm reading PPlate's description and it doesn't click. Sorry PPlate, not that I'm trolling you, but I'm like this: :icon_scra

[G8]

Dude, if you can just put one knee over and be done without any problems, you are a fucking stud!!!!

Seriusly though, how can you say one can just put one knee over and be done? Maybe against a mentally handicap who's lying dead under you. Have you tried this against somebody with an active guard during sparring?????

How the fuck are you going to bring your right leg over as you are moving to your right if your left knee is still on his thigh? Moreover, how the hell are you going to move your left knee to his left thigh????

In the unlikely case this even occurs, if you had you left knee on his left tight and you move your right leg over (I'm assuming your torso move to your right while you right leg is carried over to your opponent's left... following this horrible description), your midsection would be more or less over his hips. A good crossmount would put you over his torso.

And this is all assuming your opponent is laying dead and limb as opposed to moving to put you on half-guard. Where the hell did you get this anyway?????

I think he's trying to describe the knee-through pass and the cross-knee pass, both of which I was taught in both BJJ & no-gi; they work better for me no-gi, because it's easier to slip the knee through & free the trail foot without the gi friction. They're both valid & effective passes; I'm not going to try to describe them, but I think they're shown in "Passing the Guard" and the Royler Gracie sub grappling book.

[GoldenJonas]

Pls enlighten me, is there a rule here against asking techniqe questions?

If so pls tell me and I'll take it elsewhere.

You are VASTLY oversimplifying the technical components and necessities inherent in a "guard pass". I suppose you can generally state that most guard passes go either "through and over" (knee through the middle type) or "under and around" (double or single leg stack).

BUT the variety of passes in BJJ are HUGE. You question would be better asked if you referred to difficulty you are having with the minutia of a specific pass rather that asserting the generalization that "through and over" type passes are better and simpler than "under and around" type passes.

During active rolling the variables are too numerous to provide you with a good answer to your generalized questions regarding guard passing. Putting aside the faulty technique description pointed out by Macho, I can sort of gather what you are referring to. However, your statement that "once the knee is through your done" is simply wrong.

If you are trying to pass someone with even a mildly resistant guard there are a number of steps to get over to secure good side control once you have your knee through and down assuming you have been able pin the cross leg.

Point being, be very specific with your question as there are a lot of technically competent BJJers here who will be quickly put off by a generalization concerning any set of BJJ techniques, guard passes, like the majority of other technique subsets in BJJ can be highly technical and generalizations are just not appropriate and will not help you to progress in the art.

[Teh El Macho]

When passing the opponent's guard, is there any good reason to pass under the legs?

To my super highly limited knowledge of BJJ, when you pass over the guard, you:

1) Expend way way less energy, just put one knee over and you're done and in cross mount. You even get the chance to hurt his leg a little when you put your shinbone and your entire weight over his inner-thigh when you're passing.

Dude, if you can just put one knee over and be done without any problems, you are a fucking stud!!!!

Seriusly though, how can you say one can just put one knee over and be done? Maybe against a mentally handicap who's lying dead under you. Have you tried this against somebody with an active guard during sparring?????

Nope, I mean cross mount.

If you're moving to your right, you either

1) Put your left knee over his left thigh and bring right leg over, then you're in cross mount

How the fuck are you going to bring your right leg over as you are moving to your right if your left knee is still on his thigh? Moreover, how the hell are you going to move your left knee to his left thigh????

In the unlikely case this even occurs, if you had you left knee on his left tight and you move your right leg over (I'm assuming your torso move to your right while you right leg is carried over to your opponent's left... following this horrible description), your midsection would be more or less over his hips. A good crossmount would put you over his torso.

And this is all assuming your opponent is laying dead and limb as opposed to moving to put you on half-guard. Where the hell did you get this anyway?????

2) Put right shin on his leg (el macho: which leg??? What happened to your opponent's guard???), bring left leg over (el macho: Dude, over where??? Is your opponent's guard similar to Jenna Jameson's legs spread???) so your lower torso if facing sideways because your legs are crossed (el macho: SAY WHAT????), then flip back and tuck knees against opponent's side so you're in cross mount.

:icon_scra

Why does this thread get sent to gitmo and locked? Is there some rules to posting technique quesitons here? When I asked in the grappling section I was told to post it here...

Maybe because you are not just asking a question, but trying to explain a technique in a way that sounds just too craptacular to be kept in DHS.

I'm a noob too. But seriously dude, what you said just doesn't compute. Either they are teaching you shit, or you don't know how to describe it. :icon_conf

[Sophist]

Thanks, I was taught this too, but not the option to stack him, Rather it was to knee over one of his legs, or do the pass under thing. So is it a bad idea to pass under the legs?

Please don't use the term "pass under", as it leads to confusion between the double underhook leg scoop variants that phrase is more commonly used to describe and the technique you're talking about.

You have to control both legs at all times with these kinds of passes. In the one you're talking about, the explosive lift from underhooking one leg needs to be counterbalanced by keeping your opponent's other leg pinned flat to the mat or you'll be triangled. This isn't a bad pass done right, but it's horrid if you don't control the other leg. You probably won't get side control from it though as people will turtle instead.

[Ming Loyalist]

no there is no rule against technique questions, however if the questions are basic in nature, you often get a "ask your instructor" response, becuase of the high number of people trying to learn grappling from asking questions on the forums and then trying techniques with their (equally unskilled) friends. there is a desire to tell new people that they really need to study under a competant grappling instructor (i know your profile says BJJ and i'm sure you're training at a good place... just trying to explain the general tone here.)

you might want to read some of the questions in DHS and you might see that they are mostly highly technical discussions of specific techniques. reading a lot on the forums first can give you a good idea of the types of questions that will be answered around here.

[PPlate]

Pls enlighten me, is there a rule here against asking techniqe questions?

If so pls tell me and I'll take it elsewhere.

[PPlate]

There are other ways to pass under. My personally preferred closed guard pass is to make a little space (my knee braced against the tailbone, other leg out for balance, postured up, hands on their pelvis and pushing back), then scoop my arms under both legs at once and stack my opponent, then come to side control. It works quite consistently for me.

The pass you described will quite probably get you triangled.

Thanks, I was taught this too, but not the option to stack him, Rather it was to knee over one of his legs, or do the pass under thing. So is it a bad idea to pass under the legs?

[Das Moose]

Yeah, seriously... why the fuck do they teach that to people?

[pauli]

Nope, I mean cross mount.

just put one knee over and you're done and in cross mount.

again, no, that will put you in half guard (for the few seconds it takes for your opponent to either sweep you and get full mount, or just go straight to your back).

To move under, you take one of his legs on your inner elbow, move it to your shoulder, and you "smash" it towards his head, move to his side then pass under his leg into cross mount. This is all I know as I'm a white belt.

i hope to god you're keeping his other knee on the ground at all times.

[Sophist]

To move under, you take one of his legs on your inner elbow, move it to your shoulder, and you "smash" it towards his head, move to his side then pass under his leg into cross mount. This is all I know as I'm a white belt.

There are other ways to pass under. My personally preferred closed guard pass is to make a little space (my knee braced against the tailbone, other leg out for balance, postured up, hands on their pelvis and pushing back), then scoop my arms under both legs at once and stack my opponent, then come to side control. It works quite consistently for me.

The pass you described will quite probably get you triangled.

[Lu Tze]

To move under, you take one of his legs on your inner elbow, move it to your shoulder, and you "smash" it towards his head, move to his side then pass under his leg into cross mount. This is all I know as I'm a white belt.

You just described the Gracie gift.

[PPlate]

It depends on what you mean "pass over the guard". I'm assuming that you mean "standing guard pass" as opposed to "kneeling guard pass".

No, that's not what I meant.

There are only 2 ways to pass a person's guard right? His legs are wrapped around you in close guard, or his foot is on you in open guard, or some other variation of the higher level fancy guards like the rubber guard, guro guard, butterfly guard, etc.

However, to get past his legs, you need to either move yourself over his legs, or under his legs.

To move over his legs, you can step over, knee over, cartwheel over (LOL!) etc.

To move under, you take one of his legs on your inner elbow, move it to your shoulder, and you "smash" it towards his head, move to his side then pass under his leg into cross mount. This is all I know as I'm a white belt.

Standing or kneeling doesn't matter, you still need to either pass over or under his legs to get to cross mount or mount.

You either go "over" his legs, or you go "under" his legs.

So during sparring (with othe whites) I find it so much easier and less tiring to just go over their legs (I try to do both and alternate it so I don't have a set pattern), and when I got home I was thinking why should I bother trying to pass under their legs, its so tiring.

Especially when you're tired, and when you put him in cross mount and you screw up and he manages to shrimp and get you back into his guard, if I need to pass under his legs again it gets exhausting. But to pass over his legs requires much less energy.

I hope this explaination is clearer.

[Samfoo]

[QUOTE=PPlate]When passing the opponent's guard, is there any good reason to pass under the legs?[quote]

Yes.

To my super highly limited knowledge of BJJ, when you pass over the guard, you:

1) Expend way way less energy, just put one knee over and you're done and in cross mount. You even get the chance to hurt his leg a little when you put your shinbone and your entire weight over his inner-thigh when you're passing.

It depends on what you mean "pass over the guard". I'm assuming that you mean "standing guard pass" as opposed to "kneeling guard pass".

First of all "just put one knee over and you're done" is more difficult than you make it out. You have to control the legs and the hips and then transition to controlling the torso. GENERALLY speaking, for people who are lankier it's easier to pass standing, and for people who are squater, it's easier to pass kneeling.

2) Take far lesser risk of being triangled or have other nasties put on you if you're sloppy and make a mistake.

Not every kneeling pass puts you at risk for a triangle and other nasties.

3) Have a far lesser chance of making a mistake that will cost you. When you pass under the legs, there are many things you need to think of, control the hips, head beside ankle not knee, put weight on opponenet's upper torso, etc.

There are many things you need to think of when standing passing too, this is not unique to passing from the knees.

4) Pass the guard in fewer steps.

Not really, it depends on the person's discrete breakdown of "steps", and the particular pass that's being used.

[PPlate]

my prediction: phrost moves this to gitmo, shuma locks it once it arrives.

if by cross mount you mean a poor half guard...

Nope, I mean cross mount.

If you're moving to your right, you either

1) Put your left knee over his left thigh and bring right leg over, then you're in cross mount
2) Put right shin on his leg, bring left leg over so your lower torso if facing sideways because your legs are crossed, then flip back and tuck knees against opponent's side so you're in cross mount.

Why does this thread get sent to gitmo and locked? Is there some rules to posting technique quesitons here? When I asked in the grappling section I was told to post it here...