Alive training and beginners

[crottmayer]

I've been watching the Alive Training video and I have to say that it seems like the only real way to train.

With that said, I wonder about the most efficent way to learn a new techinque, especially for beginners, non-athletes and children. Specifically, do you think there is any place for a compliant partner in the learning process.

I'm very new to martial arts, but I'm a professional Jazz musician. I see lots of parallels between learning to improvise and learning to fight. In the academic world, all musicians that are new to improvising learn licks or short musical phrases that they can use as vocabulary. These phrases, they practice them over and over by themselves, or with other musicians willing to practice with them, slowly. Only after they have a decent working vocabulary to they try to actually improvise in real time with an actual band (alive Jazz music). Some musicians, of course, never go to school. they learn by jumping right in with a band. They also learn, but they learn MUCH slower. Also, it is so tough to learn the hard way that many talented, intuitive musicians just quit before they really learn anything. The schooled musicians that stay in the practice room never learn to play unless they get out in the real world and actually work with real musicians, in an Alive way.

It seems to me that the best way to learn a new technique would be to learn the moves slowly, with a compliant partner and speed up your technique to the point where you are working at real fight speeds. Then start working with a resisting, non-compliant partner and be forced to make the techinque either work for you, or concede that the technique needs to be abandoned since you can't make it work.

Seems like only the most intuitive athletes would be able to learn by jumping right in the deep end. Again, don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone will learn to fight without alive training. It just seems to me that some students will need to learn new techniques in a controlled situation first. At the very least, I think that controlled practice will speed up the learning process.

Thoughts? What do you think the best learning method is, especially for new students?

[NasalInfection]

Start slow with compliancy, drills, and form the foundation. From there introduce light forms of sparring and progress cautiously. Form a base physical ability and a core of techniques, always keep safety as the number one priority.

[crottmayer]

Sounds like a great recipie for quick, safe learning- definately my plan...

[GoldenJonas]

read these posts and articles concerning Aliveness and training...it should answer all of your questions on the subject.


http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...ategory&cid=27

[PirateJon]

It seems to me that the best way to learn a new technique would be to learn the moves slowly, with a compliant partner and speed up your technique to the point where you are working at real fight speeds. Then start working with a resisting, non-compliant partner and be forced to make the techinque either work for you, or concede that the technique needs to be abandoned since you can't make it work.

yes. this is how it's done. There's a big difference between some arts doing this in a few classes or at most a few weeks and some arts like karate or aikido where you're supposed to spend months or years practicing.

[crottmayer]

GoldenJonas- thanks again. Great link, have read most of those great threads now.

PirateJon- Agreed about the time frame. Seems counterproductive to wait 2 years until BB to start with the REAL sparing...

[feedback]

Most technique work should be done on thai pads or focus mitts with a competent coach to help technique. The only "compliance" I teach is use is when I'm teaching the thai kick, I guide their leg to my side with proper technique, then throw their leg so they can spin around.

[ginshun]

Most technique work should be done on thai pads or focus mitts with a competent coach to help technique. The only "compliance" I teach is use is when I'm teaching the thai kick, I guide their leg to my side with proper technique, then throw their leg so they can spin around.

You can't show somebody how to do an arm lock or a heel hook with a thai pad though. :D At first you need to try things like that on a parner that shows no resistance. Then you slowly use scenarios to ramp up the resistance, eventually try in out in free sparring and then in actual hard sparring.

Just because you are training alive doesn't mean it has to be at 100% power and speed.

[crottmayer]

Just because you are training alive doesn't mean it has to be at 100% power and speed.

Thanks! That's just what I was looking for- I want to learn how to back off of power and resistance and still train in an alive way. I think that remembering to incorporate footwork and timing at any speed might help me... it's too easy to just stand there and throw a punch or kick over and over...

[rush2024]

Your musical analysis is flawed. As a musician for over twenty years with eight years of teaching experience, a near music minor and over a decade in working bands playing various instruments, I have some ability to chime in on this.

The question is not learning everything in a band format, or never playing in a band. Aliveness is required in both MA and music - however, full resistance is not the same as aliveness. In music, alive training equates to hands on time with the instrument. Playing scales, chords, improvising over demo tracks, running scales in thirds, fourths, etc, practicing bends - this is "alive (albeit on a respirator)." You are actually playing music, and this starts DAY ONE.

Ear training, reading charts, writing out harmonies, melodies, and counterpoints in four parts on sheet music - this is dead training. No music is made - its all mental. This is the equivalent of 5 years of punching and kicking in the air. You have to pick up the instrument to be able to actually PLAY.

Running scales, playing with demo tracks, etc is equivalent to Uchi Komi or pad/bag work, maybe point sparring. At some point, you will need to get with real people and start playing in the somewhat uncertain world of live performance where its all on the line and adjustments must constantly be made. Thats the equivalent of competition in MA.

You'll never learn an armbar while someone is punching your face. Conversely, you'll never learn an armbar without someone punching your face. Technique practice is an essential element of any endeavor. The problem is that most TMA concentrate solely on the technique aspect and never on the application, turning out a host of people who can write a book on fighting but couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial wet sack.

There is a place for every aspect of training, but there MUST be aliveness present in the system whether its MA or Music. The rest, like ear training, theory work, etc, is certainly beneficial, it must not take centerstage over hands on time with an instrument, or an Uke.

Long way of saying, "Yeah, what those guys said."

[Torakaka]

Aliveness seemed to imply that the training was dynamic and active. If you try training everything with resisting partners, you wont learn a thing.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think "alive" means just do full contact hardcore deathmatch sparring with every training session, when it really just means moving around realistically.

[black mariah]

There are two sides to the equation. Learning the technique, and applying the technique. When learning it's important to get the technique right. As others have said, you can't get the technique right if you have to fight for it from the start. You have to start slowly, getting the basic movements down, then speed it up. Then you have learn to apply it with resistance.

This is why judo classes are split between the learning bit (some other judoka want to chime in with the correct term?) and randori.

[black mariah]

You know, tons of good gyms get by without trying to jump on board Thornton's marketing schemes. I don't get why this is so popular and why people keep trying to make it something its not.

No shit. "Aliveness" strikes me as being just as cultish as some of the shit people here complain about. Not only that, it's a lameass word.

[Torakaka]

as far as I'm concerned, aliveness just means being a good pad feeder. Nothing wrong with that.

[crottmayer]

I really do like the idea that I need to pay attention to my footwork and distance/location of my training partner rather than just sitting there slamming into a wavemaster forever. I think that if I can even encorporate that little bit of realism into my basic training it'll make my technique better. Even if we are working slowly or working without full power.

Rush2024- I do understand that you believe that praticing your instrument hands on is "Alive", and I agree, but in terms of Jazz Improv I don't believe it's enough. If you are working on improvising, you really need to listen to the other players that you are playing with for development of your ideas. Without their input, your improv is still dead even if your playing is alive. In summary, my analogy was to Jazz improvisation, not really to just technique on your chosen instrument. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in my first post. I see this in the same way as trying to introduce aliveness into your pratice in MA by dancing around your wavemaster while you throw your kicks and punches instead of using a partner to surprise you with moving focus pads and changes of direction and distance. In both Jazz Improv and, it seems, in MA you need the input of your training partner to help make your training real. I know that it's true of Jazz and I'm hoping that it will make my MA better, too.