Admission of guilt

[gravious]

I can recommend Paulo Guimareas BJJ, and his various branches. Let me know if you want a link.

Did you know Paulo is fighting in KOTC on 1st December? The card is here.

[Tonuzaba]

Congratulations Arhetton, on your acceptance of your saviour, our Lord (BJ)Jesus.
Your posting is the wet dream literature of anti- _ing_un-ism.
Now I would really dissapoint a couple of people here, if I would let your remarks pass by in silence.
What the hell could hold you back from stating the name of the school/teacher that made you waste 2 years of your life training bullshit? I really don't get it. If you buy rotten cheese somewhere, will you keep that shop's name secret on the "We love cheese" webforums? Why? Why not warn others? Why not expose a BS MA school?

So you say you trained some kind of wing chun for two years. Then you go on:

Arhetton]I think the biggest problem with the style is that there aren't any schools which emphasize teaching through sparring.

"Any schools"? Please give us a link to your "detailed analysis of ALL -ing -un schools on planet Earth" that you based this assumption on.

I think there are still a few techniques out there that haven't emerged into MMA yet, so I don't think its fully evolved, and maybe other styles still have something left to offer.

Yeah, we all know, that one day soon MMA is going to become THE PERFECT MA, with even the beginners beating the living hell out of any other MA trainee. Dream on.

However apart from perhaps some traps, the majority of the wing chun system, IMO, is garbage.

After only 2 years of study I wouldn't allow myself the rudeness of criticizing ANY art I'd happened to learn. "The majority of the wing chun system" is something you have never encountered in your life.

Evolution, theres a word. Apparently, Wing Chun is supposed to mean 'eternal springtime' because its 'always growing'. There is no discussion about where the style is going, no understanding of trends in the wider world of martial arts (the emerged dominace of ground fighting) etc.

No discussion with whom? With noobs who quit after two years because they did not understand what they were training?

Apparantly sparring is unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for fighting but chi sau and forms will.

If quoted, it shows the stupidity of the author of the sentence. The truth is all three combined do, if each is trained properly.

The wing chun stance/s is stupid

This is on the mental level of "grappling looks so gay." If you did not understand/see the practicality of the wing chun stance after two years, it does not speak of wing chun, but of you.

The guard is too outstretched

Outstretched compared to what? It should be one of the first lessons to explain and understand the reasons why the wing chun guard is as it is.

Apparently even beginners can knock out their opponent with the first hit (or the following 'elite' chain punching).

Chain punching is not an elite wing chun technique. It is one of the weapons in the fighters arsenal.

Most of the instructors teaching me had not been in a fight (ever) or not in the past ten years, hadn't visited another martial art school in a very long time (at least a year for most) and did not participate in any form of competition (friendly or unfriendly).

By "hadn't visited another MA school" you mean to attend classes - crosstraining, make/accept challenges or what? Wing chun people usually do not participate in any competitions. This you were supposed to be told at the first lesson (if you didn't read about it before you joined the school).

The defences taught against take downs were inadequate (downwards knife hand strike, elbow or knee).

The adequacy of every single technique is to be judged by single situations. A strike, elbow or knee might help you against a takedown in some situations, in others it might not. That doesn't mean these techniques are overall useless.

Wing chun forms.... Hmmm. 1st. frond on stance. Bad. 2nd Side on stance, weight on rear leg - okay if you were fencing in medival times, but bad for hand to hand fighting. 3rd form - the only one that makes sense, elbow movements, rotation and flexion of the torso, this form basically looks something like boxing mixed with some mu thai.

The forms are there for wing chun people to learn the basic movements. ALL MA styles have to teach you the right basic movements one way or the other. A student finds more and more meaning in the forms as the years go by. Imagine a medicine student after 2 years of study stating that neurosurgery sucks, because it's just these tiny little scalpel movements on the brain. Maybe in some more time you'd understand that you can't slash the brain tissue with a machete - that would be called autopsy. Although judged by some points in your post, you did well to leave. If they made you repeat wrong movements for two years...

Why should you even stay upright if the last (and best?) level of wing chun moves like a boxer anyway?

Comparing the Biu Tze to boxing requires quite an alive fantasy. And besides, Biu Tze is not the last level of wing chun. There are the weapon forms and the wooden dummy form. You didn't even need two years of wing chun, reading a book or googling around would have helped you faster and in a less painless way...

I never saw anyone fail a grading, even the students I knew should have failed - everyone who pays gets let through.

Now it might be that your school made grading only as a money making activity. But "you knew they should have failed"? Were you the instructor? I have seen people fail gradings at our school. On the other hand, the grading is a long term process. In my school the instructor allowed you to attend the grading after a long term observation of your training, after he thought it is time for you to move on.

Another in a long line of sick schools, and a very sick system. Where is the great Wing Chun from legend? I couldn't tell you.

Sick system... Well, let me tell you: when writing this, I am not pissed off at you. I am not telling you that I have the real Wing Tsun and you don't, although I do believe based on details you gave us, that the school you attended sucked pretty much. I don't want to talk you into trying another Wing Tsun school. It is obvious you are interested in something else. I wish you good luck in your BJJ training. And I am sorry in the name of the school you decided not to name that you had a bad experience with wing chun.

Tonuzaba

[Tonuzaba]

Sorry for making that long a chain-posting... For all those of you who didn't read my above monstrosity:

Arhetton, I am sorry you didn't like wing chun, good luck to you with whatever suits you!

Tonuzaba

[G8]

After only 2 years of study I wouldn't allow myself the rudeness of criticizing ANY art I'd happened to learn. "The majority of the wing chun system" is something you have never encountered in your life.

No discussion with whom? With noobs who quit after two years because they did not understand what they were training?

I've seen this argument raised a number of times in this context, not regarding just WC/WT but many other styles as well, and I have a hard time buying it. if you train seriously for two-plus years in BJJ, MMA, muay thai, boxing, or wrestling, you're going to have acquired significant practical skills, and you're going for the most part to have seen everything there is to see. (sure, there are advanced techniques in BJJ, for example, that you likely wouldn't be training at that point, but they tend to be exotic and uncommon techniques for sportfighting. they're certainly not the core of the system, and their absence doesn't compromise BJJ's combat utility to any significant degree. no one pulls de la riva guard in a streetfight.) higher-ranking fighters in those styles aren't better because they have profoundly bigger knowledge bases but rather because they're simply more proficient at executing the basics effectively.
so what, exactly, are the mysteries that WC/T, aikido, tai chi etc. are waiting to impart? why would someone who's trained for several years not have been shown this stuff? if these sytems do in fact impart combat effectiveness, why are they so goddamn slow about it?

[supercrap]

Tonuzaba--I got news for you.

And I think you know it already.

YOUR MARTIAL ART SUCKS.

I'm sorry I can't be more eloquent about it.

It's good that you are hear on bullshido. You've got that tiny voice in your head now. You know, the one that says "What if they're right?"

Soon you'll have a choice to make. Leave the site, return to the kwoon, stamp the little voice quiet. Or, you can face up to yourself and be brave enough to admit you might be wrong.

Also, you smell.

[Arhetton]

WC;DR

[ViciousFlamingo]

WC;DR

Thread won.

[RunningDog]

I can't believe some of the stupid things I allowed myself to think and place my trust and safety in....

I am ready to start from scratch.

You have chosen wisely. Join your fellow ex-chunners in the unofficial Chunner Anonymous thread. The first page was good, we did some good work. But as can be expected, our meeting was invaded by chunners who have yet to embrace the light of Helio...

[Southpaw]

Two years of training is plenty of time to determine if your school sucks or not.

Hell...you should be able to figure that out in two months.

Also, on an unrelated note...any wing chun school that teaches all three forms in the first 2 years is moving students along way too quickly.

[RunningDog]

What was wrong with 'Amp'?

[JKDChick]

I've seen this argument raised a number of times in this context, not regarding just WC/WT but many other styles as well, and I have a hard time buying it. if you train seriously for two-plus years in BJJ, MMA, muay thai, boxing, or wrestling, you're going to have acquired significant practical skills, and you're going for the most part to have seen everything there is to see. (sure, there are advanced techniques in BJJ, for example, that you likely wouldn't be training at that point, but they tend to be exotic and uncommon techniques for sportfighting. they're certainly not the core of the system, and their absence doesn't compromise BJJ's combat utility to any significant degree. no one pulls de la riva guard in a streetfight.) higher-ranking fighters in those styles aren't better because they have profoundly bigger knowledge bases but rather because they're simply more proficient at executing the basics effectively.
so what, exactly, are the mysteries that WC/T, aikido, tai chi etc. are waiting to impart? why would someone who's trained for several years not have been shown this stuff? if these sytems do in fact impart combat effectiveness, why are they so goddamn slow about it?

This post cannot be quoted enough.

IN ONE FREAKING CLASS AT MY CURRENT GYM, I LEARNED MORE THAN I'D LEARNED IN 5 YEARS AND A BLACK BELT IN A TMA.

[RunningDog]

Is it just me or did a mod just shout?

[Anna Kovacs]

Two years of training is plenty of time to determine if your school sucks or not.

Hell...you should be able to figure that out in two months.

People without exposure to real fight training will tend to not know if what they're doing is good or not. 2 months or two years.

Some people even get their ass whipped in fight after fight and go back to the system that fucked them up feeling that they failed the system.

"When i get my black belt...THEN i'll be able to really fight."

[Southpaw]

What was wrong with 'Amp'?

Nothing. That has been my nickname for 15 years.

But some dude joined the site w/ the name Dionasaur AMP, and he said he was known as AMP on MAP. So that made me want to kill myself.

Take that with the birth of my daughter, and my taking a break from training wing chun (daily) and training BJJ full time...and I thought it was time for a change.

Change is good.

[meng_mao]

Is it just me or did a mod just shout?

That's like the least offensive thing mods do around here.