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WENG CHUN ; What do you think ?

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    WENG CHUN ; What do you think ?

    I myself have practiced Weng Chun Kung Fu for about 3,5 years and in my opinion it's a complete martial system.
    There is one thing i have to say WENG CHUN KUNG FU is not WT or a form of modern Wing Chun,Ving Tsun,Wing Tschung,Wing Zun etc... .
    Weng Chun is considered to be the oldest of all Ving Tsun styles by the people from the Ving Tsun Museum.Some masters of Weng Chun including Grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann say that it's the oldest of all Kung Fu styles.
    Perhaps ( perhaps! ) it is the oldest "organized" martial art because it began directly with Bodhidarma in the southern Shaolin Temple.
    The present day Weng Chun has been developed and saved by Chi Sim the last abbot of the southern Shaolin Temple before it's destruction (that's why Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu was called Chi Sim Ving Tsun Shaolin Kung Fu some years ago.)
    There is just one little exception the groundfighting was developed by Grandmaster Hoffmann and Rickson Gracie. But Weng Chun had already lots of escapes from Mount,Back,Guard,Cross-side and so on ... .
    So it was just a little bit changed and Grandmaster Hoffmann also has awards for the development of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and he was the first who taught Gracie Ju Jitsu in Germany.

    So i'd like to ask you : "What do you think of Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu?"

    If you don't know Weng Chun look at and tell me you opinion , there are also many links to other martial arts sites including Weng Chun sites.

    First of all, screw who developed what or what is older. Makes no difference if you want to talk about effectivness. Of course, if you are taking WC to learn about Chinese history and culture, then that is something else. For me the question is, does it work?

    Second, if it is complete, why did Sifu Hoffmann even bother with teaching/training Gracie Jiu-Jitsu?

    From those pictures, alot of those guys looked very out of shape. I noticed from my WT training that guys would obtain a very high rank, but had no conditioning. For me, this is a problem if you want to call yourself a martial artist.

    Of course, I think that cross training BJJ is a good thing . . .

    Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
    Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.

    Edited by - mrmcfu on June 15 2003 05:19:09


      Three things:

      1. Entirely agree with MFF's first point.

      2. Politics suck.

      3. Nice to see a style of WC that has finally realised the lack of ground capability/awareness and is shoring it up with actual training (rather than theorizing, to which many others limit themselves).


        Some guys looked very out of shape that's right but i think that's because Weng Chun is an internal martial art.When Grandmaster Hoffmann was young ( around 16 or 17 i think ) he met Cheng Kwong the first time.When he saw Cheng Kwong he didn't think that that old little and weak man could be one of the best Dragon Style Kung Fu Masters ( note: Dragon style is very similar to Weng Chun but it also uses some techniques with a larger curvature similar to Tai Chi Chuan ). Sifu Hoffmann was very very strong at that time ( you can see this on old pictures ) because he had practiced lots of modern martial arts in Germany.So Hoffmann wanted to test Cheng Kwong and tried to fight with him. But he couldn't even put up a fight! He was easily beaten! Strength and size doesn't matter very much in Weng Chun.Weng Chun is one of the few styles that really develop Qi.

        I didn't take WC to learn about Chinese history and culture but i have to learn about that because that's a part of the tradition of Weng Chun.Because if we don't know the history of a style we don't know what we are fighting for.Or better how we have to fight. Which intensity of defense we are allowed to apply.

        One very good question is why Sifu Hoffmann started to train Gracie Jiu Jitsu and taught it.If Weng Chun is a complete martial system he wouldn't need that that's right.But Sifu Hoffmann did so because he had heard of the extreme strength of the Gracie's.He had visited and fought with a lot of modern martial arts masters before and he won all fights.When Sifu Hoffmann met Rickson Gracie both fighters recognized that each other was of extreme strength and surely a world-class martial artist.So Grandmaster Hoffmann and Rickson Gracie worked together and helped each other to develop styles.Both recognized that Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu and Gracie Jiu Jitsu are in fact very similar.The difference is that Weng Chun doesn't want so many groundfighting because it's absolutely ineffective against two or more attackers.So a bit of Weng Chun groundfighting and a bit of Gracie Jiu Jitsu was changed. That's why Hoffmann has awards for helping to develop Jiu Jitsu.Today Sifu Hoffmann says that in a few situations Gracie Jiu Jitsu is even equal to Weng Chun.

        I can't obtain a high rank when im not trained very good Sifu Hoffmann tests every 4-5 months.My fourth test was to graduate for blue belt and it was very difficult.I think for example a black belt in some modern martial arts is much easier to get.Weng Chun is a very old style (1400years ore more) so there are very much things incorporated in that style. So i have to learn very much for the tests and it's not easy to pass them.

        Thanks for your replay MrMcFu.


          While I don't doubt you have worked very hard, it sounds like you might have also swallowed the myth of a martial art "secret" (in this case Qi or Chi) that negates differences in stength and size.

          For example, let's say I train for 10 years in WC or BJJ or whatever and I go out and fight Bob Sapp. I would lose very quickly and probably be severely injured or killed, simply because of the size difference.


          Internal martial arts and fitness are NOT mutually exclusion. Man kann beides gleichzeitig haben!

          Also, while I have not trained directly under a Gracie, I did train under Carlos Machado and would assume most BJJ schools put a premium on conditioning. If your Sifu or those other students did as well, they would probably look a little less round. I think if he took that training truly to heart, he would also have better conditioning for his students as well.

          I am not trying to trash your style, just to get you to challenge your assumptions. It seems to me that your instructor wants to be considered legitimate which is understandable, but at the same time does it through associating his name with the Gracies. I believe this would be a form of what could be called "nutriding" on bullshido, but keep in mind this is just my first impression.

          If you have any evidence of a WC stylist using WC defeating a BJJer using BJJ, please post it! I have yet to see anything of the sort and would welcome it. Every NHB competition with a WC/WT/VT stylist I have seen ends with the WT guy tapping. The "My style is too deadly for the ring" is not an excuse.

          Also, please post some evidence of WC being used to develop GJJ. Most people in this board would be very intrested in that.

          Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
          Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.

          Edited by - mrmcfu on June 15 2003 09:57:09


            I'm always skeptical of grandmasters with western names... they're sooo humble...

            ToS, right now you're overwhelmed by the magnificence of your art. It'll take a few more years for you to figure out what's really good and what's bad about it. Nothing is perfect...

            How much do you spar? Does your GM participate?




                Wing Chun is good, but by all mean not the only way. I've seen many Wing Chun people lose to other styles. Stop thinking about all this martial fantasy, and focus on science. Nothing magical about the Wing Chun punch if you really take a look at it then you'll see that there is an extra joint movement there, nothing magical. You people are watching to much Dragonball Z


                  I think everyone should Weng Chun tonight.
                  And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.


                    I'll give you fair warning. Wastrel is going to see your section about your definaition of qi and will tear you apart if you can't back it up. Get rehearsing your answers.


                      If you say that you would not be afraid to get in the ring with Bob Sapp, you need to think again!

                      Also, I am not saying your master could not defeat Bob Sapp . . . but that is quite a claim to make.

                      What is the reason for no video taping? Are the techniques somehow too secret and deadly? Is your master actually doing the NHB people a favour by NOT fighting them? Is that his ethical reason? (Insert "style too deadly" comment here)

                      As a side note, I live in Hamburg. If your master comes here, I will check him out. Bamberg is too far for me. Remember, you asked what myself and other Bullshidoers think, and some of us told you. The burden of proof lies on you to demonstrate and prove what you say.

                      Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
                      Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.


                        um, WTF?
                        i look at this later

                        god....another w... chun thing

                        Hard work, Patience, Dedication.


                          Qi is not a magic energy. It comes from a musculature a normal martial artist can't use !!! It's a special kind of rotating musculature. The existence of Qi has been proven in the Weng Chun academy Dai Duk Lan which was destroyed in 1991. If you want i can tell you more about that. The existence of Qi was also proven at lots of chinese universities. But it's NOT A MAGIC POWER.
                          Oh, just an invisible rotating anatomically perfect muscle?

                          There is one thing where i'm very sure.If you would train very very hard for 10 years you could fight Bob Sapp!!! I'm absolutely sure you could do it!!! Absolutely!!! You would WIN EASILY!!!
                          But golly, didn't people already try that?


                            Sorry i don't have much time today. Just 4 things:

                            1.There are no deadly techniques in Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu.The first Weng Chun practioniers were monk believing in philosophies like buddhism , taoism und confucianism. According to the philosophies no Weng Chun practioner was / is / will be allowed to develop or apply deadly techniques.Grandmaster Hoffmann has never taught deadly techniques to me or other people.

                            2.I don't invent things about Qi or Rickson Gracie and Sifu Hoffmann.
                            I just write what Sifu Hoffmann has taught me and what i have experienced.I admit there are some questions i can't answer but i swear upon my honor as a martial artist Sifu Hoffmann can answer and show.As i know Sifu Hoffmann was in America very often and i'm sure he will come again.

                            3.Some people here make a mistake when the talk about Weng Chun.Weng Chun can not be compared to WT,Wing Tsun,Wing Zun or so. If you have problems with that please read my first article again.

                            4.Bob Sapp is not invincible i have seen him loosing two fights. And i thin in 10 years he will be a lot weaker than he is today.Bob Sapp has lost to Nog (there is a clip of the end of the fight at mcdojo)
                            and to a boxer (don't remember name).I have seen the fight with the boxer on TV (Eurosport).
                            So why are some people here who say Bob Sapp is invincible ???????????


                              4. I didn't say Bob Sapp is invincible, I just used him as an example because he is so much larger than most people. I wanted to state that size and strength DO matter. Also, check out the part where Nog gets piledriven through the mat. Do you think you could get up and keep fighting after that? Let me put it another way -

                              Take an adult male silverback gorilla. Not the same species as a human, but anatomically similiar. 2 legs, 2 arms, a head, and a neck. If strength and size don't matter, than you or your Sifu, with proper Qi cultivation, would be able to beat one. Sorry, I don't buy that arguement.

                              3. Yes you did say the WT/VT styles are much different than WC. I don't know anything about Weng Chun so I lumped it with the other styles since they all seem to be part of the same family. Looking at the WC website showed guys with different types of uniforms, so maybe it is different. Sorry to lump them all together, but this forum has already been polluted with WT/VT politics. (I have about three years WT expirience myself)

                              2. I never said you invented anything. I just wanted evidence of how WC influenced BJJ. It also seemed to me, I could be wrong, that your Sifu only used the Gracie name to legitimate his style. That was because those dudes were so round. If your Sifu comes to Hamburg, I will go to his seminar.

                              1. I don't know about deadly techniques or the lack of them, in WC.

                              Can you post some videos of it being used in an acutal fight? NHB included . . That would be really great.

                              Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
                              Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.

                              Edited by - mrmcfu on June 16 2003 13:12:11



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