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    Ninjutsu

    I'm new to this board ladies and gents, so forgive me if this topic
    has been done already. Just wondering what folks opinions of ninjutsu are as a martial art. I'm talking about the Hatsumi Bujinkan, or Genbukan, or Jinenkan schools, not ASS-Hida Kim, or any other fringe folks.

    And if you don't like it just please state so and your reasons for the opinion. I'm not pro or con, so I don't need a verbal "ass-whoopin'"

    Do people generally consider it a viable MA? I don't really care about it's legitimate Koryu lineage, etc., just whether anyone out there has studied it, and if they believe it is effective.

    Thanks.

    #2
    I just think it doesn't exist anymore. I can't exist, since it had to passed within a family line and none of the families are left.

    But others know more than little ol'me.

    "I'm willing to bet I could fuck up an emu real good, if I got the drop on the bastard."
    -- KC Elbows, my new hero.
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!

    Comment


      #3
      I can't exist, since it had to passed within a family line and none of the families are left.
      *GRIN*

      --
      Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

      When or where the way is free - strike.
      If the way is not free make it free and - Strike.
      Stick with what comes and when the way is free - Strike.
      As they retreat follow through and - Strike.
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        #4
        I'm not too sure what you mean by "Ninjutusu" but one guy at my gym says it's no BS, effective. Hmmm, still throwing stuff and backflips and flipping out sounds really cool!

        --
        Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

        When or where the way is free - strike.
        If the way is not free make it free and - Strike.
        Stick with what comes and when the way is free - Strike.
        As they retreat follow through and - Strike.
        Surfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido

        https://www.instagram.com/bullshido/

        Comment


          #5
          JKD Girl, I think that Masaaki Hatsumi would refute your claim that the original families died out. He makes claim to be a legitimate inheritor of many of the ryu-ha of ninjutsu from way back.
          He allegedly has the scrolls to prove it. Never seen them so I don't know. I know there is a lot of debate over ninjutsu's claim to legitimate status, particularly in Japan. But I've never heard of any of its detractors (especially here in the USA) actually confronting Hatsumi sensei with their comments, to see how he would respond.

          Comment


            #6
            Pizdoff,

            You're buying into the movie/t.v. version of ninjutsu. The Bujinkan folks don't even call their art "ninjutsu" anymore for just that reason. Too many people associate it with the Ashida Kim types who perpetuate the black-garbed assassin image of ninja.

            Comment


              #7
              On lineage:
              No, there is no family-relationship that traces it to Hatsumi.
              Yes, it did come from the orginal ancient families, via Takamatsu to Hatsumi. There are tons of resources on the web about the lineage tree. There's too much hype about the scrolls, although they do exist.

              As far as the art, it's effective. Yet, as in any dojo/art, there needs to be a good teacher. Should be at least Godan or above. For beginners, Nidan-instructor might be ok for the first year.

              As far as being called 'Ninjutsu', that's an endless debate as well. Bujinkan has a lot of samurai/jiu-jitsu techniques as well.

              One thing I have NOT seen in many Bujinkan schools is groundfighting and grappling. Luckily my current teacher competed in shootfighting in Japan and emphasises it a lot in our training.

              So, yes, I think it's effective. I've been doing it for 6 years now...



              ______________
              I've gone to find myself. If I'm not back before I return, leave me there.

              Comment


                #8
                Kuroneko,
                I didn't say there was a "family relationship" to Hatsumi. He got the scrolls and sokeship passed down to him from Takamatsu, no?
                Where do you train? If I may be so bold to ask? Are you training with Anko Dojo in the SouthBay?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Kuroneko,

                  I agree with almost everthing you said, except the Godan thing. Statements like that are the reason why there are so many 34th Degree Grandmasters out there nowadays.

                  Finding a good teacher is important. A good martial arts teacher must not only be skilled in the art but be able to effectively pass it to others. Both skills are necessary, and do not automatically come because some one has stripes on his belt.

                  If someone is more skilled than I, can help me grow, and runs his business in a professional manner, I'll train under him, no matter what his rank is.

                  <marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>

                  Comment


                    #10
                    what is the distinction between ninjitsu self defense method(taijitsu?) and other idigenous japanese methods like jujutsu and karate?

                    it is my understanding that ninjitsu taijitsu is not different from jujutsu.

                    i guess my point is, what makes ninjitsu distinctive? empty hand methods, weaponry, tactics, etc.?

                    i am not at all familiar with ninjitsu particulars.

                    but being ninjas, i suppose you cant tell me. lol.(joke)

                    peace.

                    " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Ninjutsu was based upon assassination, thus the hallmark of the art and its defining characteristic are outdated and outmoded.

                      Ninjutsu as a martial art was mainly other Japanese and Chinese martial arts with additional training in weapons, poisons, occult magicks, mind control and other tools of assassination.

                      If you want to take the physical martial art that was the root of ninjutsu minus all the hocus pocus, its mainly Shorinji Kempo. If you want to dress up like Snake-Eyes, carry a sword strapped to your back and scale walls, then buy a house with a big lot and practice that fantasy on your own.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Wizard - the family relationship was in response to JKDChick's comment... yes, sokeship was passed down from Takamatsu

                        Punisher - true. It's just been my experience that Godan and above where the better teachers. Of course there are competent lower level BBs. Bujinkan ranking is weird anyways, cuz they go till 15th Dan. Well officially it's not 15, it's 10th Dan and then they add 5 elements. It was probably done to put a damper on all the 10th Dans that thought they can slack off now...

                        Kuntaokid - there is karate in the bujinkan. We've trained the Koto ryu karate recently, but it is not comparable to what is usually understood under karate. I don't know much about jujutsu but I guess the bujinkan ninjutsu could be compared to jujutsu. It's hard to explain the distinctions. There's weaponry involved, mainly bostaff, hanbo, jostaff, knife, sword, and maybe rope. There's more, but that's what I've done extensively so far.

                        Gongolongo - ninjutsu was not BASED on assassination. Discussing 'Ninjutsu' is a whole other story. The question in the thread is Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan. I even read on one website the Bujinkan never practiced 'ninjutsu' but the taijutsu part of the 'ninja'. Bujinkan people don't claim to be mysterious ninjas and run around with swords scaling walls in a house they bought.
                        I don't know what Shorinju Kempo is and it might be the root of of some ninja clans or it might even be similar to Bujinkan.
                        Bujinkan, whether it's called ninjutsu or not, is an effective art in itself. Of course you need a good teacher and I'm glad that we are sparring in our dojo which it seems a lot of other Bujinkan dojos don't do.

                        ______________
                        I've gone to find myself. If I'm not back before I return, leave me there.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          "We've trained the Koto ryu karate recently, but it is not comparable to what is usually understood under karate."

                          how does it differ?

                          "Bujinkan, whether it's called ninjutsu or not, is an effective art in itself."

                          that's what i am trying to get some insight on here. could you give a synopsis of the method of engagement, say with bare hands. like aikido will try to redirect and throw, bjj will takedown and lock/break, poekulan uses the 'bum rush and break away', etc., what is Bujikan basic fighting theory?

                          peace.

                          " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"

                          Comment


                            #14
                            "how does it differ?"
                            Karate in Bujinkan would simply mean striking techniques. I kinda worded it a bit confusing... koto ryu is one of the schools of the Bujinkan. It is not a karate school. But it is a school that focuses on striking and breaking, as opposed to armlocks or other things...

                            "what is Bujikan basic fighting theory?"
                            hard to come up with a simple definition, I'd say it's 'act according to the situation'
                            sometimes we redirect and throw, sometimes we takedown and lock/break, sometimes just evade and get away.
                            To narrow it down, I'd say it uses a lot of timing, moving offline, and manipulating/breaking the attacker's balance.
                            And it's never just aggressive or defensive. We would study both.

                            ______________
                            I've gone to find myself. If I'm not back before I return, leave me there.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              * They put emphasis on natural, fluid motion rather than rigid form.

                              * They teach using unconventional tricks like throwing dirt or blinding powder (pepper mixed with small pebbles and white ashes) into a guy's eyes.

                              (The reason for the mix in the blinding powder .. the pebbles hit the face so the guy thinks that whatever you threw has already hit him, he opens his eyes and gets burned by the pepper that hangs in the air because of the extremely light white ashes)


                              * They mix stand-up grappling and strikes with low kicks. It's a lot like Jujutsu but with a more utalitarian focus, so they say.

                              Open hand thrusts, bone breaking fist strikes, thumb strikes to nerve centers, wrist locks, kicks to the front of the knee and groin, tiger claw, dodge and strike the arm that punched.. the draw is that it covers all the bases. It doesn't have much wrestling though.

                              The humble and relaxed attitude also appeals to a lot of people. Just be natural and don't tense up. I think that idea is new to a lot of TMA students brought up on Karate or TKD.

                              some unique-ish Ninpo techniques:

                              * The inverted toe kick is also in Kung Fu and all but instead of slapping with the instep, the toe can poke into the groin. It's a funny looking kick but you can surprise a guy with a groin shot using it.

                              * They use an open hand strike that is a lot like Bruce Lee's one inch punch. They do claim that a Chinese monk named Cho Gyokko was the first to teach their techniques to the mountain people at Iga. Ninjutsu claims a Chinese origin.

                              * They press the knee of an attacker down, this is not a rare thing but it isn't something you see people focus on in a dojo. In ninjutsu, something like grabbing a guy's ankle and pressing his knee to send him falling back on his butt is considered practical so it's important. They go for stuff like that over flashy stuff.

                              Hmm.. ok, nothing is that unique really. You could find it all somewhere else. It is a good collection though.

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