Analysis of Kempo

[GoldenJonas]

Jonas, I sort of see what Arahoushi is saying. Normally, uke would be relaxed while tori, stopping either up to the point of kushusi, tsukuri or going all the way by throwing him. You could also take that into a power drill where uke resists you as much as possible (or even has somebody behind him holding him) while you try your best to throw him... to develop power. The former helps you develop technique, helps you work the nitty gritty details. The later helps you develop powah. And there is also dynamic ukemi where you and your partner agree to walk several steps before executing the throw.

None of those would be of any real use if that's the only thing being done, and none of them together will be of any good long term if the students are locked in a very narrow set of throws forever. I don't think that was what Arahoushi was referring to.

It makes sense to at least train ad nauseum a base set of throws: o goshi, osoto gari, seio nage and uchi mata, and tai otoshi, for example. From that, skills to faciliate other throws will follows. That is, one has to have a solid base from where to develop skills for other techniques.

BTW... major ass thread derrailing here :tongue3:

Nice post KempoFist. Looking forward to read another one like that.

OK, That does make more sense from a training/learning perspective and if that was what was meant by Arahoushi then I will happily back track on the criticism.

My overall point was that you may as well bang your head against a wall rather than trying to drill one technique against a fully resisting opponent who knows what technique the torre is limited to.

KempoFist - On the issue of aliveness or varying degrees of active resistance; Kempo training has a bit of focus on various SD techniques that when practiced or attempted with "aliveness" would fail, probably miserably fail in most circumstances. How would you suggest training/teaching these techniques to give at least a small bit of realism/resistance as opposed to the traditional half moon lead punch which is left out for the defender to perform the technique?

It would seem to me that this aspect of Kempo training may have to be left out entirely or drastically changed to be effective.

[Ke?poFist]

OK, That does make more sense from a training/learning perspective and if that was what was meant by Arahoushi then I will happily back track on the criticism.

My overall point was that you may as well bang your head against a wall rather than trying to drill one technique against a fully resisting opponent who knows what technique the torre is limited to.

KempoFist - On the issue of aliveness or varying degrees of active resistance; Kempo training has a bit of focus on various SD techniques that when practiced or attempted with "aliveness" would fail, probably miserably fail in most circumstances. How would you suggest training/teaching these techniques to give at least a small bit of realism/resistance as opposed to the traditional half moon lead punch which is left out for the defender to perform the technique?

It would seem to me that this aspect of Kempo training may have to be left out entirely or drastically changed to be effective.

I completely agree. As they say, "absorb what works, and discard what doesn't"

I have no qualms tossing utter BS, but I personally feel alot of the concepts intended to be conveyed by the static techniques could be addressed by reworking those concepts into alive drills. As I said in the TKD knockoff thread any style that truly tries to become a "complete" and "live" martial art, will end up looking alot like a sport MMA school with an emphasis on the arts base ideology. The concepts of slipping punches into standup pummeling while the breaking of the opponents balance by simultaneously throwing low kicks is something that I feel is worth salvaging and reworking in an efficient manner.

I also (as a primarily self defense training martial artist, and not a sport fighter) am a big proponent of working in straight up SD techniques off of certain attacks that you may never encounter against a trained fighter.

For example, the guy at the bar, who takes a big swing to knock your head off isn't exactly something you'd encounter in a sparring match, but still something to prepare for, and while I have no doubt that anyone who purely trains in sport like surroundings would have no problem mopping up the floor with that guy, I still feel that there are easier ways such as slipping the punch with an outside parry or fan block and simultaneously palming the face with the inside hand.

Perhaps it's just me clinging to my training, but hey it works, I've used it, and it can be drilled live.....if that's so wrong then call me a traditionalist :bduh:

[Ke?poFist]

Was thinking about this today, and I figured I'd bring my own thread back from the dead to add this on here...

The main issue seems to be the issue of trying to address something chaotic and stressful with techniques that are choreographed and prescribed for a specific set of actions and reactions.

Instead of breaking down a fight into its basic components (3 ranges, types of attacks etc...) most Kempo schools seem more intent on utilizing more of an action - reaction type of training, with heavy emphasis being on the recieving end of an attack and counter-attacking. A class may run along the lines of the instructor saying something like, "ok someone attacks you in this way, here's what you do..." as opposed to a combat sport instructor who would say, "ok someone is at this range, you want to do this to keep your distance, and then here's how you close the distance to get a clinch etc..." It's simply one addressing combat as one-sided battles, and one addressing the reality of a fight being chaotic, and trying to give you all the tools necessary to control the situation and tip the odds in your favor of coming out on top.

For example a Kempo technique may go, "attacker throws a right handed punch towards your face. You block the punch, then step into his center and thrust punch him in the ribs. Then you chop the neck. Then you palm the face. Then you turn 90 degrees to your right and sidekick the knee." Another technique would deal with a different kind of attack.

Focusing on these pre-set drills is quite the epitomy of "missing the forest in the trees" and no matter how many times you practice them -even REALLY hard with an uke- won't make you any more prepared to deal with a real confrontation.

I would feel a better way to address this situation would be to break it down into blocking/covering drills. And then work isolation drills to teach how to open up and expose the body to execute the rest of the barrage, or part of which against a live opponent. Stepping inside of a boxers stance after blocking is asking for nothing less than a hook punch to the head -even if you caught a clean strike to the face-, and not addressing that is just poor instruction.

[Simonthesong]

This is an interesting article. I'm pleased to see such an emphasis on actual application coming from a TCMist.

May I add:

When I've trained techniques in the past, I ask my partner to steadily increase their resistance. This way, at the beginning I am allowed to figure it out, but I don't go directly from no resistance to full resistance. Given about 20 minutes (for basic upright locks or strikes) of this steady increasing, my partner ends up at close to full resistance while I'm still able to perform the technique properly.

On forms/kata/whatever: most TCM have a huge number of techniques. A form is a way of cataloguing these techniques so that they may be remembered easily, as well as provide "advice" on how to use them in succession. However, a practioner should be able to apply each of those techniques individually in a number of situations outside of how the form "advises". We can sometimes forget that the techniques themselves are the basis of the system, not the forms we find them in.

Dynamic tension creates strong endurance muscles. With those aformentioned "resistance exercises" one can keep up the same level of power in their strikes for a longer time. I don't think it improves the power of those strikes much though. I don't know much about this, so if someone has a lot of knowledge, I'd love to hear more.

[Simonthesong]

Also, one way I have drilled is to be assigned one or two attacks and one or two defences. I then am free to attack my partner all I want, and he me, so long as I use only these techniques. This way we simulate aliveness (correct usage of term?).

[Ke?poFist]

On forms/kata/whatever: most TCM have a huge number of techniques. A form is a way of cataloguing these techniques so that they may be remembered easily, as well as provide "advice" on how to use them in succession. However, a practioner should be able to apply each of those techniques individually in a number of situations outside of how the form "advises". We can sometimes forget that the techniques themselves are the basis of the system, not the forms we find them in.

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction with your training, but I feel the need to comment here, where you say advice on how to use them in succession is where I feel alot of schools, regardless of style fail with kata. The thing is, is as I said in response to the Sparrow with the "something open, something close" line, alot of instructors will just piece togethor the motions without regard for reality through pressure testing. They'll put togethor a smaller sequence than the kata itself made up of the katas parts, thats just nearly as impractical due to the fact that it not only is a predetermined response to an opponent, but also accounts for the opponents reaction. Such soothsaying in a fight is quite unrealistic.

I have no real problem with techniques or sequences to give students an idea of what's possible, but when emphasis on that over free-sparring is placed, then that is where I feel the problem lies.

[Ke?poFist]

Also, one way I have drilled is to be assigned one or two attacks and one or two defences. I then am free to attack my partner all I want, and he me, so long as I use only these techniques. This way we simulate aliveness (correct usage of term?).

Reads to me as isolation sparring, so yes that is definately part of an "alive" training session. I would also recommend working drills where your opponent throws a limited number of attacks (in motion), and you just work defenses and counters, and vice versa. Building muscle memory and a strong base of skills is what is key.

[patfromlogan]

Was thinking about this today, and I figured I'd bring my own thread back from the dead to add this on here...

The main issue seems to be the issue of trying to address something chaotic and stressful with techniques that are choreographed and prescribed for a specific set of actions and reactions.

Instead of breaking down a fight into its basic components (3 ranges, types of attacks etc...) most Kempo schools seem more intent on utilizing more of an action - reaction type of training, with heavy emphasis being on the recieving end of an attack and counter-attacking. A class may run along the lines of the instructor saying something like, "ok someone attacks you in this way, here's what you do..." as opposed to a combat sport instructor who would say, "ok someone is at this range, you want to do this to keep your distance, and then here's how you close the distance to get a clinch etc..." It's simply one addressing combat as one-sided battles, and one addressing the reality of a fight being chaotic, and trying to give you all the tools necessary to control the situation and tip the odds in your favor of coming out on top.

For example a Kempo technique may go, "attacker throws a right handed punch towards your face. You block the punch, then step into his center and thrust punch him in the ribs. Then you chop the neck. Then you palm the face. Then you turn 90 degrees to your right and sidekick the knee." Another technique would deal with a different kind of attack.

Focusing on these pre-set drills is quite the epitomy of "missing the forest in the trees" and no matter how many times you practice them -even REALLY hard with an uke- won't make you any more prepared to deal with a real confrontation.

I would feel a better way to address this situation would be to break it down into blocking/covering drills. And then work isolation drills to teach how to open up and expose the body to execute the rest of the barrage, or part of which against a live opponent. Stepping inside of a boxers stance after blocking is asking for nothing less than a hook punch to the head -even if you caught a clean strike to the face-, and not addressing that is just poor instruction.

Well, to play the devil's advocate, I think that practicing pre-set drills does install a memory response that does work sometimes in sd. Like the nurse I read about in CA who took a two week sd class. Perv grabbed her from behind and she did the old side step/back elbow and cracked his sternum. I know of two incidents when Danzan Ryu JJ and AK sd drills worked for sd. In both cases the ma was not successful until they got the other guy into their routine - off balanced 'em or got them trapped, and then in the JJ case, choked 'em, and in the AK case he followed through with the Dance of Death or Monkey Steals Peaches or whatever he called the follow through strike combo (he said he felt kind of sorry later). Similarly, my favorite tech against front choke is to pin their wrists to my chest with my hands grasped together and step back. As he falls toward me I drive my hands into his face. I don't know how to practice that type of sd technique in a principle based or "live" type training.

That asside, what Kajukenbo under Prof. Clarence Emperado teaches is improvisational response based on principles. Much more like what your last paragraph might entail.

[patfromlogan]

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction with your training, but I feel the need to comment here, where you say advice on how to use them in succession is where I feel alot of schools, regardless of style fail with kata. The thing is, is as I said in response to the Sparrow with the "something open, something close" line, alot of instructors will just piece togethor the motions without regard for reality through pressure testing. They'll put togethor a smaller sequence than the kata itself made up of the katas parts, thats just nearly as impractical due to the fact that it not only is a predetermined response to an opponent, but also accounts for the opponents reaction. Such soothsaying in a fight is quite unrealistic.

I have no real problem with techniques or sequences to give students an idea of what's possible, but when emphasis on that over free-sparring is placed, then that is where I feel the problem lies.

Hmmm, if I'd read this before the above post.... :happy8:

[Ke?poFist]

Well, to play the devil's advocate, I think that practicing pre-set drills does install a memory response that does work sometimes in sd. Like the nurse I read about in CA who took a two week sd class. Perv grabbed her from behind and she did the old side step/back elbow and cracked his sternum. I know of two incidents when Danzan Ryu JJ and AK sd drills worked for sd. In both cases the ma was not successful until they got the other guy into their routine - off balanced 'em or got them trapped, and then in the JJ case, choked 'em, and in the AK case he followed through with the Dance of Death or Monkey Steals Peaches or whatever he called the follow through strike combo (he said he felt kind of sorry later). Similarly, my favorite tech against front choke is to pin their wrists to my chest with my hands grasped together and step back. As he falls toward me I drive my hands into his face. I don't know how to practice that type of sd technique in a principle based or "live" type training.

That asside, what Kajukenbo under Prof. Clarence Emperado teaches is improvisational response based on principles. Much more like what your last paragraph might entail.

Yeah, that is fine, and drilling such techniques can really instill a good habit for certain scenarios, but when the technique is a) flawed or b) too long and accounting for too many variables to play out in a specific sequence, then practicing them becomes inefficient and at worst building bad habits.

[GoldenJonas]

FYI - Not to :hijackp: your thread but there is some Ke_po talk going on over at .....
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46059
in case you want to chime in.

[Simonthesong]

I think it's worthwhile to consider a combination of attacks that occur in a form as a valid sequence. I've heard that forms are created around real historical fights or matches. If this isn't a complete crock, then it means someone with much more ability than I has seen merit in stringing techniques together in this particular way. My main concern would be being unable to seperate the techniques in application, or be versatile in their use.

I dislike a drill where I can only defend-counter or attack-get countered. As the "defender" I should still be able to initiate an attack if my "attacker" leaves an opening. Likewise, if I am the attacker, I should have to learn not to create that opening. Even though I am working on a specific skill, ditto my opponent, I think it is vital that I be given the freedom to switch roles as the situation demands.

[Ke?poFist]

I think it's worthwhile to consider a combination of attacks that occur in a form as a valid sequence. I've heard that forms are created around real historical fights or matches. If this isn't a complete crock, then it means someone with much more ability than I has seen merit in stringing techniques together in this particular way. My main concern would be being unable to seperate the techniques in application, or be versatile in their use.

Unfortunately this is an often touted cop-out line for shoddy BS artists. It's true that many forms were created by fighters who liked what they saw at another school and without the aid of recording devices devised a way to catalog the techniques via kata. But today, especially in the the western world and especially in Kempo, this is not the case. Most forms are watered down traditional forms from other styles, that have been changed and reworked dozens of times to make the motions "more practical" in the eyes of the current master. In my school, I've seen debates rage on about the original way a kata was taught, and the possible applications that could be found within on whether you have your hand open or closed, or if your stance is wide or short, but in the end NONE of the applications I've seen of such katas hold water in reality during a real fight, so on a whole they should be scrapped.

Kata as a tool is as useful today as a rock tied to a stick is useful today compared to a hammer.

I dislike a drill where I can only defend-counter or attack-get countered. As the "defender" I should still be able to initiate an attack if my "attacker" leaves an opening. Likewise, if I am the attacker, I should have to learn not to create that opening. Even though I am working on a specific skill, ditto my opponent, I think it is vital that I be given the freedom to switch roles as the situation demands.

Well I see your point, which I was I said, to also run those drills, not exclusively. An example of such a drill is I'd have a partner just move around throwing jabs at me when he felt like it, and I would parry - slip - and counterstrike with a level change body shot. Working that over and over sets me up for more lengthy striking combos, or into setups for a takedown. Of course after working that drill, a good counter for the attacker should be shown, and then having an isolation drill combining offense and defense between the two partners can be done. (then free-form sparring).

It's all about building the skills necessary in the most efficient manner.

[Simonthesong]

NONE of the applications I've seen of such katas hold water in reality during a real fight, so on a whole they should be scrapped.

Hmm... I don't agree. There have been moves in my forms where I think to myself, "WTF is this rubbish? This isn't conditioning, this isn't applicable, this is dancing!" There have also been moves where I immediatly see a number of applications. There have even been combinations where I think, "Heeeeey! I can see exactly why that would work."

The forms I know that have a lot of jumping and arm-flapping are not worth ever practising for something other than an aeroic workout. I abandon them happily in favour of jogging. The forms I know that have tight, controlled, and self-evidently applicable techniques, I practise in conjuction with drilling. Are the forms more of a time waster? Well, at my low level I see this application obviously, so what's to say I won't find something else later on?

If I can, I'd do both. If I have to choose, then I pick the good techniques and drill them.

Kata as a tool is as useful today as a rock tied to a stick is useful today compared to a hammer.

Hammers have evolved from rocks tied to sticks.

[Ke?poFist]

Hmm... I don't agree. There have been moves in my forms where I think to myself, "WTF is this rubbish? This isn't conditioning, this isn't applicable, this is dancing!" There have also been moves where I immediatly see a number of applications. There have even been combinations where I think, "Heeeeey! I can see exactly why that would work."

Well after thinking for a moment, I will concede and admit that issuing a blanket statement on kata motions being unapplicable isn't true. Though still, alot of instructors try to really read into every motion and find an application, and then argue that doing the kata in the air is actually somehow building your ability to do the technique held within.

I once did a demonstration to prove a point to my students that this line of thinking was flawed. I demonstrated my "cereal eating form" where I scooped my hand holding an imaginary spoon into an imaginary bowl. Then ate the imaginary cereal, put down the spoon and wiped my chin with an imaginary napkin. I then did all the motions shown live on an uke and applied a wrist lock on him off of a collar choke attack. I then proceeded to ask them if they would believe me that if I told them that eating their bowl of cereal every morning was preparing them to apply that wristlock off of a real attack. :ninjafigh

Hammers have evolved from rocks tied to sticks.

Don't question me when I'm making up history! Cavemen had lots of nails to hit.