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Analysis of Kempo

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    #16
    tl;dr

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      #17
      Nice article!

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        #18
        Originally posted by peng
        The slow movements (which we're infamous for) build strength a little differently, it's a steady controlled power. Once you've got it burned in slowly, the speed just comes naturally. It seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.

        It's like lifting weights slowly, if you do it fast, the initial power used is quite high, but after that, you've got a bit of momentum working with you, and almost nothing happening on the way down. If you do it slow, your muscles are working and straining every step of the way, up AND down, and so you build more strength.

        With empty hand forms that translates into speed and power, as the muscles used to support and propel the limb are strengthened and can add to the movement THROUGHOUT the lifetime of the strike.

        Since the first proposition may not be correct, we could say that your conclusion is flawed.

        Altrough I agree on this:

        The problem a lot of folks have is in memorizing the sequence of movements within a drill. In my own experience, I'm thinking of sword drills, specifically. Some students just see the drills as a sequence of movements to be performed. They know that after they try to stab me, I'm going to coil them, so they go immediately into the coil after the stab, which means I'm following their sword instead of leading it.

        It's even worse on the defensive end, if you know what sequence of attacks is coming, you go immediately from block one to block two, and you wait for the opponent's sword to meet you there.

        While it makes for a smooth-looking set of drills, it doesn't really teach much in the way of actual skills.

        In any two-person drill set I endeavor to actually strike the opponent and block as if I don't know what's coming. The people I train with are the same way, and if we don't block correctly, we get hit, plain and simple. One of them is nursing a sore forehead as we speak because he didn't block my push effectively. Sometimes we even change them up and experiment with the subtleties of the movement.

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          #19
          Very kosher KempoFist. I liked the article and agree with boardHitBack. Maybe well have an Alive fist Kempo one day. Anyway Kempo is stil a good art it just needs to be applied in an alive manner. Then it will start to look similar to kickboxing but still different.

          Have a dead martial art? Just add aliveness and watch it grow!
          Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Gym
          Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Blog

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            #20
            Originally posted by Arahoushi
            An honest evaluation of an art, and something that teachers of that art should probably think about.

            Re: the breaking down of longer set techniques (kata, I suppose) into pieces

            I think that kata training (in the sense of pre-scripted drills) is useful at some level, and obviously you can break drills down into constituent techniques and recombine them, but it needs to be emphasized that although you'll get a good feel for the motions of a technique this way, the only way you'll ever get good at it is to do it more times full-speed than you did half-speed or slower.

            Not necessarily free form sparring, but attempting to perform a techinque on someone while they're fully resisting. Let me give you an example from judo. Suppose my uke and I have been trading off doing a drill on a throw. We've been practicing footwork, grips, kuzushi, fitting in, and finally throwing. Now, instead of just throwing us in randori, the sensei might have him try to do that throw on me full-speed while I do everything I can to resist it. We're still no at the "free sparring" level because he's locked in to one technique and I know what's coming. But if he can pull the technique off in this situation, it'll be easier for him to do in randori, right?

            The idea is that you have to build from the drill stage, to a hybrid full speed and resisting drill, to the ultimate test of free sparring, which is, "practice" for what you're going to be using this whole art for.

            I think you covered this point above, but I just reread and I didn't see it specifically in there, so I thought I'd get your input on it.
            Yeah, you make a very good point, and although I implied it I really should make a direct point about it in the final copy I give to my students. Thanks for the input. This is kinda why I threw this onto the flames of Bullshido before I decided this to be my final copy.

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              #21
              Hey, all I can speak from is experience. I've got a pretty fast punch these days.

              The slow form method builds constant strength through the movement, the explosive fa-jing type techniques take practice as well, but the slow work makes them more effective (i.e. deliver more power) due to the constant strength and the "link up" of the rest of the body, perhaps.

              Speed alone does not equal power, I suppse is what I'm saying. The speed comes from relaxation coupled with explosive movements, and the power comes from the slow, coordinated movements and muscle memory. I guess.

              I can throw a fast punch with not a lot of mojo on it, or a fast punch with quite a bit of mojo on it, or a slow punch with quite a bit of mojo on it, and they all stem from the same training regimen.

              Now, which part of the regimen causes which part of the performance is (obviously) debatable and up for question, but the results speak for themselves.

              When we do lift weights, we lift them fast and with the whole body (cheater reps, as most folks call them).

              EDIT:

              Rereading that article, it makes a lot of sense. When I do "fa jing" movements, it's only every once in a while during the form. In light of this

              "With only three reps per set, the total duration of the set is very short (~9 seconds). This is imperative since the force producing capabilities of the FFR and FF motor units decrease at any time longer than approximately 10 seconds."

              I can see why they do it that way.

              During the course of a 40 minute form, you do less than a minute of fa-jing.
              Last edited by peng; 5/14/2006 5:36pm, .

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                #22
                Originally posted by peng
                Hey, all I can speak from is experience. I've got a pretty fast punch these days.
                Yeah, like everybody else.

                Originally posted by peng
                The slow form method builds constant strength through the movement, the explosive fa-jing type techniques take practice as well, but the slow work makes them more effective (i.e. deliver more power) due to the constant strength and the "link up" of the rest of the body, perhaps.
                I don't see how you can get constant strenght in a slow movement. in fact, it would be a pretty relaxed motion, unless your doing it with some sort of resistance.

                Originally posted by peng
                Speed alone does not equal power, I suppse is what I'm saying. The speed comes from relaxation coupled with explosive movements, and the power comes from the slow, coordinated movements and muscle memory. I guess.
                power=speed+mass, more or less, ot was it speed x mass?

                Anyway, performing tehcniques in a slow fashion wouldn't be my first choice to develop power.

                Originally posted by peng
                I can throw a fast punch with not a lot of mojo on it, or a fast punch with quite a bit of mojo on it, or a slow punch with quite a bit of mojo on it, and they all stem from the same training regimen.
                I doubt you can throw a slow punch wioth "mojo", mostly because it wouldn't be a punch, but a push.

                Originally posted by peng
                Now, which part of the regimen causes which part of the performance is (obviously) debatable and up for question, but the results speak for themselves.
                You could be getting results despite certain parts of your training more than because of them.

                Originally posted by peng
                When we do lift weights, we lift them fast and with the whole body (cheater reps, as most folks call them).
                Look how I carefully said "may not be" instead of "isn't". The debate lifting slowly vs. explosively still goes on between the weightlifting-lovers community.

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                  #23
                  I don't see how you can get constant strenght in a slow movement. in fact, it would be a pretty relaxed motion, unless your doing it with some sort of resistance.
                  Do you know of dynamic tension type forms? Essentially resisting yourself through slow movements. I've never looked into the science of it to prove whether it helps or not, but I can say that after doing a few katas in such a fashion my arms are quite tired out.

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                    #24
                    I lift both ways. Slow and fast. Slow when im using heavy weights and fast when I use lighter ones that I can control. Any slow punch that has power is a push.

                    Lights Out its power=mass X speed but you were close.
                    Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Gym
                    Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Blog

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                      #25
                      Tut tut, Lights Out needs to read more wing chun threads. The formula for force (powah!) is F=MA...

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by KempoFist
                        Yeah, you make a very good point, and although I implied it I really should make a direct point about it in the final copy I give to my students. Thanks for the input. This is kinda why I threw this onto the flames of Bullshido before I decided this to be my final copy.
                        I picked up the implication of that in there; I just thought it needed to be made explicit, because on Bullshido we seem to gloss over the middle step a lot in our zealous advocation of sparring, which is full-speed, full-contact drills that still isolate the technique.

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                          #27
                          learn a technique-----> drill the technique------>apply against resisting opponent------> spar
                          Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Gym
                          Port Jefferson Martial Arts - My Blog

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by KempoFist
                            Do you know of dynamic tension type forms? Essentially resisting yourself through slow movements. I've never looked into the science of it to prove whether it helps or not, but I can say that after doing a few katas in such a fashion my arms are quite tired out.
                            How is it done? How can you do a movement in certain direction while resisting yourself at the same time? I mean, how can you do it seriously?

                            BTW, in my non-edited post I also say "or was it speed x mass"?

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Lights Out
                              How is it done? How can you do a movement in certain direction while resisting yourself at the same time? I mean, how can you do it seriously?
                              Ya know it's kinda hard to describe in text, but essentially instead of just moving say your arm, you tense the muscles as hard as you can, and then imagine an object in front of you that your hand must push. Now that you got me thinking about it I suppose it's more just the strain of the muscle being tensed with the mental illusion that you are fighting against yourself in the motion.

                              Still tiring nonetheless if you hold it in isolation like that while doing a kata. But again, whether you gain any strength or....anything from it I still don't know. I was always taught it as a way to build control and power.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Lights Out
                                Yeah, like everybody else.
                                Of course, that's why we study, right?

                                I don't see how you can get constant strenght in a slow movement. in fact, it would be a pretty relaxed motion, unless your doing it with some sort of resistance.
                                Three ways, one is using every inch of your muscle (go back to the slow lifting argument) another is in training all the parts of your body to be connected. So, you aren't just throwing a fist, you're "throwing" your body, albeit it in a way that doesn't commit the weight. And third, you're "stopping to smell the roses" so to speak, and letting your body get used to being in every position between stilness and impact along the lifetime of the movement. It translates directly into efficiency and smoothness in the movement.


                                power=speed+mass, more or less, ot was it speed x mass?
                                Exactly, it's not speed alone.
                                A 1 pound object travelling at ten miles an hour has, let's call it, ten units of force. A 1/2 pound object travelling at twenty miles an hour has an equal amount of force, but what about a 200 lb object moving at 8 miles an hour?

                                The numbers may be off, but the point is easy enough to see. Internal arts train the body to act as one huge mass when issuing power.

                                Anyway, performing tehcniques in a slow fashion wouldn't be my first choice to develop power.
                                Obviously. But it works for me. That's why there are so many martial arts.

                                I doubt you can throw a slow punch wioth "mojo", mostly because it wouldn't be a punch, but a push.
                                No, a push is something different, entirely, lol. "Slow" is a relative term meaning "slower than my fast punches".

                                You could be getting results despite certain parts of your training more than because of them.
                                Coitanly, but they seem to work well nicely, and the more I learn, the more I see their usefulness.

                                Look how I carefully said "may not be" instead of "isn't". The debate lifting slowly vs. explosively still goes on between the weightlifting-lovers community.
                                I suppose it depends on the point of the excercise. We all have different reasons, different focuses, and different ways of getting there. Take what works for you, drop what doesn't, live and let live.

                                EDIT:

                                And, of course, "punches" is shorthand for punches, kicks, twists, grabs, joint locks, etc. the same principles apply.
                                Last edited by peng; 5/14/2006 6:15pm, .

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