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A thought on _ing _un, and why it sucks (maybe more of a historical question?)

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    A thought on _ing _un, and why it sucks (maybe more of a historical question?)

    I posted this here simply because I don't tink a _ing _un thread could survive in any other section!

    I have recently abandonded my _ing _un training and switched to a new school that trains MMA and BJJ, (and I would never go back) but I had a thought - _ing _un surely couldn't have been the bullshido it is today a few hundred years ago, right? I have a suspicion that it at one point involved a lot of grappling (or at least crappling), purely based on that fact that a lot of wing chun moves seem viable in the mount or reverse point position, or in many other grappling situations, whereas they are laugable in a standing form.

    Did this occur to anyone else? My god I think i've stumbled upon the truth behind why _ing _un's modern incarnation is absolute crap!

    And beyond this - has anyone truly tried to mix serious _ing _un (I know that's funny, but humor me) and grappling (or at least crappling)? All variants i've seen are either just to make money or to make minor yet futile revisions, but no one seems truly interested in improving the art.

    #2
    uh... welcome to the club... and good luck trying...right.

    It might work, but only ever so at lower levels. I mean i've used "Sticky hands" techniques to get my sparring partner to let go of my hands when i try to escape guard, but that only ever works with the newer students. Other than that i usually go back to square one after 2 seconds.

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      #3
      I've said it a couple of times, but it bears repeating.

      I've read in some book that one of the possible origins of _ing _un is that it was a style developed for the fishers, who, for some reason, had to fight in the small boats they used for fishing.

      It you look at the stances and the (arm) punching technique, or the concept of the center line, it makes some sense. It is like you were trying to figh in some place where maintaining equilibrium is hard. Like in a small boat.

      If this is true, why somebody would want to fight in firm land as if they were maintaing equilibrium on a small boat is beyond me.

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        #4
        Have nut, will ride, eh?

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          #5
          Originally posted by Lights Out
          I've said it a couple of times, but it bears repeating.

          It you look at the stances and the (arm) punching technique, or the concept of the center line, it makes some sense. It is like you were trying to figh in some place where maintaining equilibrium is hard. Like in a small boat.
          I've never thought of it that way, but now that you mention it, it does make sense why they choose to fight the way they do...

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            #6
            "Wing Chun: Great for Pirates."
            Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
            click here to order on Amazon

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              #7
              Yarrrr.

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                #8
                *Smacks himself on the head* Oh... thats why we get all those stories about _ing _un masters being able to defeat 50 over people...

                As they jump on your boat, you arm punch them so they lose balance and fall out, rinse and repeat.

                Arh ye boot lickers! Its time to Shiver me timbers.

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                  #9
                  And eat my 8ft pole!

                  er...
                  He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it- Nietzsche

                  I like my Te like I like my tea- from Fujian province and without any bullshit in it. Oh, and green. And scented with jasmine blossoms...

                  Originally posted by A Better American Than You
                  In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Lights Out
                    I've said it a couple of times, but it bears repeating.

                    I've read in some book that one of the possible origins of _ing _un is that it was a style developed for the fishers, who, for some reason, had to fight in the small boats they used for fishing.

                    It you look at the stances and the (arm) punching technique, or the concept of the center line, it makes some sense. It is like you were trying to figh in some place where maintaining equilibrium is hard. Like in a small boat.

                    If this is true, why somebody would want to fight in firm land as if they were maintaing equilibrium on a small boat is beyond me.
                    That's dumb. If that was the case, there wouldn't be any side kicks or roundhouse kicks in WCK.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      also, how often would anyone even a particularly angry fisherman have to fight in a small boat? often enough to develop a whole system?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by crowey
                        also, how often would anyone even a particularly angry fisherman have to fight in a small boat? often enough to develop a whole system?
                        It depends on how often ninja-pirates attacked in the 18th century?Often enough.
                        [img=http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2364/8026700123940loij9.th.jpg]

                        "God damn America" --Muammar al-Gaddafi

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by crowey
                          also, how often would anyone even a particularly angry fisherman have to fight in a small boat? often enough to develop a whole system?
                          I've never say it was the smart thing to do. Dunno, thinl in river-priates or something like that, or people fighting over what they've fished.

                          I'd look more into it. I beleive I've read said story in a book by an english man in colabortion with Yip Man, or maybe it was in another book. Next time I'll pay a visit to my parents I'll look in my MA books and see it I can provide a source.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by planetwingchun
                            The fact that Leung Yee Dai was said to be employed on a boat should not be dismissed lightly either. On closely observing the basic stances and footwork patterns of Wing Chun, it is indeed possible to accept that this system had its origins on the deck of a boat where it would have been quite impractical to jump about or throw high kicks. Wing Chun's Saam Gok Bo, or "Triangular-sliding stepping", and Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma, or "Goat-gripping stance", are perfectly suited to maintaining stability on something as unstable as the deck of a boat.

                            Then there is the issue of the name of the system. Was, as the legend suggests, the system named after the first and only student of the nun Ng Mui, or is there another explanation? According to most accounts of the original Shaolin Temple, one of the halls in the grounds of the Temple was known as the Evergreen Hall, the first character being identical in sound, though differing in form and meaning, to that which makes up the first part of Yim Wing Chun's name. In mainland China today there still exists at least one style of Wing Chun which uses this same character rather than the one favoured by the "Hong Kong" school.

                            Some other schools of southern Chinese martial arts also make reference to this Evergreen Hall, claiming it was one of the main sites in the Shaolin Temple for training, or that it was the residence of the monk Ji Sin and that when he taught his version of the hybrid style, he named it Wing Chun in memory of his former home. While training in Hong Kong over the years I have spent many long hours discussing the history of Wing Chun with instructors of the style, one of whom teaches another branch of the Wing Chun tree which traces its line back to the monk Ji Sin. This instructor, Sifu Cheng Kwong relates a history which brings the two branches of the Wing Chun line back together, firstly around the time of Yim Wing Chun's husband, Leung Bok Chau, and again at the time of Leung Yee Dai. Sifu Cheng Kwong also believes that when the funeral tablet for Yim Wing Chun was being prepared, the first character of her personal name was written down incorrectly and was in fact meant to be the word meaning "evergreen" rather than the one which has come to be used, the meaning of the combined words in the "Hong Kong" Wing Chun meaning "to sing praises to springtime".

                            As stated earlier on, I consider it fair to assume that several people, over a long period of time (rather than one or two people making up an entire system in just one generation), gradually developed and refined the techniques and concepts of the Wing Chun system, pooling their combined knowledge and experiences in order to do so. As my own instructor, the late Sifu Wong Shun Leung of "Hong Kong" Wing Chun fame suggested, it is most likely that a group of "Gung Fu fanatics" with a wealth of knowledge and experience, gradually developed what we now call Wing Chun Gung Fu, refining it further and further with each successive generation.

                            Taking this notion even further, on more than one occasion I have heard it said by my teacher that it was not until when being interviewed by a reporter one day in the 1950's that the late Grandmaster of the system, Yip Man, made mention of any of the history prior to Leung Jan's time. It seems that there was popular martial arts magazine circulating then which regularly did feature articles on the various schools in the Colony and one surmises that, in order to follow the pattern already established, Yip Man may well have embellished the story somewhat.

                            Sifu Wong surmised that the system was transmitted down the coast and along the rivers of south-eastern China by the people who ply those waters, such as fishermen, traders, opera junk performers and others, who would have had a use for good fighting skills and many an opportunity to test, refine and exchange skills. Finally, one extra piece of the puzzle fell into place during my quest for answers when I found, quite by accident while reading a Chinese book on a completely different subject, that tucked away in southern Fujian province, about one hundred kilometres "as the crow flies" north of the port city of Xiamen lies the small town of Wing Chun, the characters being exactly the same as those in the name for the Evergreen Hall!

                            Could it be then, that over several generations a group of dedicated martial artists, seeking more efficient ways to engage in combat, gradually came to develop this unique method, and that they passed it on, friend to friend, relative to relative, teacher to student, until it made its way to Fatsaan where it was eventually learnt and refined even further by Leung Jan? Perhaps, as Sifu Wong suggested, they were people living on the water who travelled regularly up and down the coastline of southern China? That would account for the opera performer Leung Yee Dai coming across the art while himself travelling on the opera boat. It would also help to explain how the Wing Chun system inherited its Luk Dim Boon Gwan or "Six-and-a-half-point-Pole" form, the techniques of which greatly resemble the poling actions used when travelling upstream along the many river deltas in that region. And what better name for their brilliant invention than Wing Chun, the name of the village from whence they had come?

                            While it is highly unlikely that we will ever know for certain what the true origins of Wing Chun are, it is interesting to consider these possibilities. The one factor which is irrefutable is that the Wing Chun method is one of the world's most evolved combat systems. It is structurally sound and stands up to the most stringent scientific scrutiny, not to mention its very impressive record on the streets of Hong Kong and elsewhere. What is most important is that the man who brought Wing Chun to the public, the late Grandmaster Yip Man, should be remembered for the role he played in developing the art, and for passing on his unique skills to his four original students, Leung Seung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheung Tin and Wong Shun Leung, each of whom have contributed in some special way to the development of Wing Chun's reputation for being a combat skill not to be taken lightly.

                            As Sifu Wong so often said, though we don't know who the ancestors of Wing Chun were, it is our duty to carry on the tradition, to pass on the art as we have learned it, and to develop in our own students a pride in the system that they have inherited, and a desire to raise the skills of Wing Chun to even greater heights. Whether we owe a debt of gratitude to a nun and her student, or to a group of fishermen and an opera star, the fact remains that Wing Chun is a magnificent achievement which should be preserved for future generation
                            Some wc propaga...er history on the subject of boats and d34dliness.
                            He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it- Nietzsche

                            I like my Te like I like my tea- from Fujian province and without any bullshit in it. Oh, and green. And scented with jasmine blossoms...

                            Originally posted by A Better American Than You
                            In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              _ing _hun looks off balance B/C anyone that would waste time with it after they saw the light of MMA has to be off balance. I did JKD and WC years back and I am ashamed I wasted so much time with ppl like Gary Dill when there were great guys like Terry GIbson around my area. A lot of my training though has been with nutrider bullshido practitioners, kem/npo fairies, wierdos, and as*holes who claimed to be masters but have never been in a fight once in their lives.

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