Anti Grappling

[TheSparrow]

Are you talking about the tok sau jut sao combination quite early in Chum Kiu? I would say that it is a looong stretch to claim that it could be interpreted as that kind of armbar we see in the pictures. Silly oveninterpretations of the forms make them less not more...

I can only imagine that's what he's talking about. If the jip (tok + jut) sao is interpreted as an arm break, then that means the entire concept of "breaking the arm" is included in _ing _un. That means that juji gatame is a _ing _un technique. LOL.

So, since there are punches in the forms, does this mean that "striking with the fist" is a _ing _un concept? So all boxing combinations are therefore _ing _un techniques?

It's just silly. You can only stretch the idea of a "concept" or "principle" so far, before you realise that you're no longer a proponent of your current style.

[Shuma-Gorath]

As to the Arm bar escape, it is basically the same one taught in BJJ, so you are just makeing fun of yourself anyway. and yes both legs are on the chest. There is a different answer for when they actually trap the arm with the legs proper. but I guess BJJ can be mastered in 6 months so noone ever would make a mistake like that..... :5baby:

The stupidity of your partner doing an incorrect or unrealistic attack not withstanding, I have never in fact seen anyone put both legs over the chest. Not even a two-day white belt. Maybe if the grappler (in a wing chun t-shirt) had his feet crossed and Wingy McChainpunch had thrown his feet off his head it would make sense, but our strawman's feet are parallel in that photo.

Are you seriously so delusional that you need to defend the indefensible just because it's wing chun?

You guys are full of shit. I could do the same parady of Bjj with some crappy still images from a BJJ vid.

You have one week to make that thread before BJJ wins again.

[Guerrero]

This is the only decent move that I saw. If he moved his left foot a little higher and put it on the guy's hip he would have a nice open gaurd with a kick to the face. Well, IMO anyways.

[TheSparrow]

This is the only decent move that I saw. If he moved his left foot a little higher and put it on the guy's hip he would have a nice open gaurd with a kick to the face. Well, IMO anyways.

Unfortunately, he moved straight into "heel kick to torso".

[Shuma-Gorath]

This is the only decent move that I saw. If he moved his left foot a little higher and put it on the guy's hip he would have a nice open gaurd with a kick to the face. Well, IMO anyways.

If he kicked on the other side of the arm (inside) the guy would fall into a clean triangle. That picture reminds me of people who've just learned an armbar and try to throw the foot over your head without any hip movement, but it's pretty clear he's not even doing that since any non-striking attack would make him one with the enemy.

The question is can you pull off a leg lock from in the guard while being kicked in the face? Do you practice getting kicked inthe face?

I practice not getting kicked in the face by having good ankle control, good posture or both.

Thats not an arm bar and you know it., although he is now set to hock the right leg around the arm and roll into a kimora with his leg, or whatever you guys call that.

That man is miles away from the technique you are just barely grasping at. At the risk of contributing to your future hand-waving, it's called an omoplata and with that sub-par control strawman would be able to pull his arm out and punch the other man in the face. He'll lose the arm by sitting up from there even if strawman does nothing.

[Guerrero]

Unfortunately, he moved straight into "heel kick to torso".

I was speaking hypothetically. But yeah, that heel kick to the torso was definately "t3h gh3y".

[TheSparrow]

Later, I will post some "Anti Clinching" stills. Unfortunately, they don't look good as still images and so won't be so much fun.

[whybother]

I can only imagine that's what he's talking about. If the jip (tok + jut) sao is interpreted as an arm break, then that means the entire concept of "breaking the arm" is included in _ing _un. That means that juji gatame is a _ing _un technique. LOL.

So, since there are punches in the forms, does this mean that "striking with the fist" is a _ing _un concept? So all boxing combinations are therefore _ing _un techniques?

It's just silly. You can only stretch the idea of a "concept" or "principle" so far, before you realise that you're no longer a proponent of your current style.

You have just nailed why the whole "principle-based martial art" or wc concepts view is silly. Only people who aren't really sparring, and with people outside of their little circle, will think this way. Martial art becomes an intellectual exercise to them. People who actually spar/fight will know that concepts are just 'tips' to help a person apply the techniques of their martial art. Technique, a physical way of doing something, is the basis of any martial art. Concepts are ideas that come from the experience of actually performing the techniques. When you start with a concept as opposed to technique, as the mind boxers do (who only fight in their imagination), that concept is no longer grounded in application and technique. You then lose the technical basis of your martial art. And so get idiots like the guy in the video creating all sorts of silly techniques. Your martial art can have anything since it has nothing.

[DaChinkOfSteel]

You have just nailed why the whole "principle-based martial art" or wc concepts view is silly. Only people who aren't really sparring, and with people outside of their little circle, will think this way. Martial art becomes an intellectual exercise to them. People who actually spar/fight will know that concepts are just 'tips' to help a person apply the techniques of their martial art. Technique, a physical way of doing something, is the basis of any martial art. Concepts are ideas that come from the experience of actually performing the techniques. When you start with a concept as opposed to technique, as the mind boxers do (who only fight in their imagination), that concept is no longer grounded in application and technique. You then lose the technical basis of your martial art. And so get idiots like the guy in the video creating all sorts of silly techniques. Your martial art can have anything since it has nothing.

Good post...although, I'd replace "concept" with "theory"...

I use "concept" as a means of applying many techiques...for example, maintain good posture and don't overextend is a concept I learned at BJJ and serves many purposes for many situations when I'm in someone's guard...the "theory" behind that is if I maintain good posture, I'm less susceptible to sweeps and if I don't overextend, I'm less susceptible to submissions...

In this case, both theory and concept are valid because hell, they work...

I agree...with the idea of theory running rampant, as you'd suggested...without practical application, they will never know if their theory works...ESPECIALLY under unrealistic conditions as shown in the still-shots...1) the person isn't performing the "attacks" properly and 2) they're not attacking full-force, nor are they anti-grappling full-force as to test their theory...hell, I've been kneed/kicked in the groin, gouged, and all that jazz inadvertantly at BJJ and I'll still continue grappling...it's as if they assume the conditions will be so perfect as to allow a square on nut-shot or eye-gouge or what have you without the potential that during a scramble, maybe those targets won't be so readily available...

Ridiculous anti-grappling nonsense...I'm new here, but I guess "teh d3adly anti-grapl3" would fit this pretty well...

[WesMcNasty]

The question is can you pull off a leg lock from in the guard while being kicked in the face? Do you practice getting kicked inthe face?

Can you defend a leg lock from the guard? Do you practice kicking people in the face while they competently attempt a leg lock? Besides, if the grappler was smart, he'd play the top game and beat the shit out of you until you beg him to break your arm. Oh wait, WC has the answer for that:

[Mr Punch]

He didn't know how to do the armadillo. :tard:

You young fool, he was clearly doing the Funky Gibbon.

Fortunately _ing _un has the answer to that too.

The distance these gentlemen stand at means if they were really doing an efficient style they'd take the fucking bus.

Why, oh why don't they use the 'drawing both guns from the back of your belt' tech in sil lum tao?

Dr Tzun Tzu is living proof as to why I don't cross train. I like my wing chun to be purely ineffective bitch-slapping, and I don't appreciate morons trying to include grappling techs in wing chun. As somebody said, the best way to beat a grappler is by grappling.

[Simon McNeil]

the best way to beat a grappler is by grappling.

Or a tactical nuclear weapon... covered in nine inch spikes... and an electrified shell. Or just do this: :fart:

OK I'm done with the stupidity now.

[Fighting Cephalopod]

The question is can you pull off a leg lock from in the guard while being kicked in the face?

Yes.

Do you practice getting kicked inthe face?

Yes. Do you practice kicking someone in the face while they try to apply a competent leglock? I doubt it.

[Aesopian]

I was considering posing several rhetorical questions with regards to the nature of real grappling and the fallacy of anti-grapply and why anyone would defend this awful clip. But I think I can bypass all that and get to the true issue here:

Dr._Tzun_Tzu, what's it like being so stupid?

[Gumby]

The question is can you pull off a leg lock from in the guard while being kicked in the face? Do you practice getting kicked inthe face?

First off, you're assuming that Im going to go for a leg lock- I'm not a fan of leg locks, and certainly wouldnt go for one in a real fight (exceptions being when its an all out fight and I want to cripple someone via heel hook).

So, the question isnt can I pull off a leg lock while he kicks me in the face, but will his kicks do anything to keep me from passing his guard.

This video was floating around the jiu jitsu gear forums awhile ago, and I normally laugh at anti grappling stuff, but I will give this guy *SOME* credit for the fact that he showed an elbow escape from the bottom of the cross side and a bump and roll escape from the mount. As far as most of the "anti" techniques he showed, most of the were a joke.

If he showed a sprawl into a front headlock followed by knees and elbows, I wouldnt complain one bit.

Thats not an arm bar and you know it., although he is now set to hock the right leg around the arm and roll into a kimora with his leg, or whatever you guys call that.

Its a poor attempt- hes in no position to do anything- all the man on top needs to do is pull his arm at the elbow- trying to pull at the wrist is exceptionally difficult (much more so in no gi no less).

He has absolutely no submission there, not with his hips that far away. There is no armbar, no triangle, no omoplata, and no kimura. You're also missing the follow up to that move:




This would imply an armbar attempt frm the bottom, sweeping your opponent to his back, and simply kicking the shit out of him. Nothing wrong with the whole kicking the shit out of him- thats a matter of preference, but I've seen this full video, and this "armbar" and "sweep" is a product of over co operation by a training partner- people fight when you throw an armbar on them- they dont roll to their back and die.