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BJJ inferior to Kosen Judo

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    I think the politics in BJJ is going to go away with more BJJ around and especially
    more university and non-profit clubs.


    Originally posted by Yrkoon9
    I guess I need to explain a few things further.

    In Judo I was promoted faster than other students who trained with me because I did well in competitions. My first Judo competition I had 7 matches and got 3rd place. I competed less than 3 months later and got 1st. In that time I did a lot of studying and as our belts were broken down into categories of 8 throws and a corresponding number of newaza techniques it was very easy for me to learn them. I bought a book, learned all the rules and terminology and kept competing. I went got green belt in like a year. But that still kept me in the novice division. Which meant I was still able to crush the little white/yellow belts.

    In order for me to compete against higher level guys they promoted me to brown very early. Most tournaments did a brown/black division, and everyone else in the novice division. So although I 'knew' the techniques neccessary for promotion it was more a justification for better competition for our club. Looking back I was pushed through rather quickly. And to be honest, I didn't have the time in grade to compete with these black belts. I got Ipponed fairly frequently in competition.

    But the politics of Judo were almost zero. Formal training, formal competitions, and then formal promotion. Easy.

    BJJ has been much harder. I have been promoted again by performance and competition sake over anything else. I got my blue in less than 6 months because of my Judo background, fierce competition schedule, and training discipline. But I sorta hung back at blue and quit for a while. When I came back I had to climb the conditioning & injuries hill again. Then we moved. I got with another instructor and althrough I was already a very seasoned blue belt there was no way I was going to get promoted. I had 'earn' my promotion from the new instructor. He wanted to see loyalty. He wanted to see me win divisions. He wanted to see me tap out every blue belt ever created. Unreasonable expectations. I should have been a purple belt long before I was promoted.

    The politics are weird with BJJ. Of course you have to be able to eat most blue belts. But you also have to demonstrate loyalty, etc. On top of that my instructor is notorious for not promoting people, and is a Carlson black belt. A double whammy in terms of Americans getting a belt. He wanted me to keep winning for him as a blue belt. I was tired of winning as a blue belt. I wanted stiffer competition. So I bought a purple belt, told him I wasn't ever going to compete again as a blue and if he wanted me to compete for him he would have to give me his blessing to compete in purple. He VERY grudgingly did so. My first tournament I lost to a referee decision. So he could smugly sit and say I wasn't ready. Months went by and I competed again as a purple. Didn't make it to the finals. Got 3rd. He had to admit I could hang there. But wouldn't test us. Months go by. FINALLY get promoted. Took fucking forever. If it were Judo it would have been done. None of this egotistical instuctor bullshit.

    So what I am saying is I had to jump through more hoops in BJJ. Judo was real easy. Learn the technique and then compete and win. BJJ I had to win, but I had to win win win win win. Then demonstrate loyalty. My instructor wasnt going to take me as a student and promote me to purple a month later.

    Now to finish off the bullshit the tests are insane. I have described them elsewhere. Suffice to say in order for me to get brown I could die in the test. I think its crap. So I don't think I will get brown from him. Too much of a hassle.
    Current stage of death: denial


      Originally posted by drummerboy
      You can promote as "non-competitor". That means you do not have to collect points by competing in regular shiai. You have to have certain time in rank, be certain age, have certain amount of points from kata competitions, helping at score tables, weigh ins and such at shiais, demonstrate the technique and (I think) do the kohaku shiai. But you dont have to win.
      This is USJF rules. USJA is I think slightly different, the club has more say in your promotion up to shodan.

      And to be clear: I don't think this is in any way detrimental to judo. Our kids' coach was a non-competitor, and he was/is a great kids' coach.

      Originally posted by ImAlrdyNum
      My club grades according to USJI standards, and rank criteria is based on time in grade, and points earned: service points(working tournaments), and competition points. You earn points for beating someone of the same or higher rank, higher the rank the more points are awarded.

      You don't have to compete to earn ranks, it just takes a hell of a lot longer. I started Judo July 2004, and I've competed in and won or placed in 6 tournaments since then. I made sankyu last month, which in my club is a brown belt, other clubs may not wear brown until ikkyu. It should take me at least another year and a half to shodan, first black, not that I care.
      Yeah, I just looked it up. I'm sure it varies considerably from club to club, and probably from state to state, but the IJF standards would be the minimum requirements.

      I'm not sure if it was only my club that required wins, or if the standards have changed since then, but we had to win to advance. Some of the players only did forms, but they still had to win.

      I agree with ImAlrdyNum about the belt, I couldn't care less. As long as you can compete in the expert division, what difference does it make.

      I also agree with Drummerboy that the IJF standards (allowing advancement w/o competing) is probably a good thing for the sport. The sliding scale system makes sense to me.

      Yrkoon, thanks for posting all of that, it's interesting. I had no idea that's the way it worked in BJJ.


        Originally posted by lawdog
        I agree with ImAlrdyNum about the belt, I couldn't care less. As long as you can compete in the expert division, what difference does it make.
        Exactly. My only motivation to advance in rank was to get to sankyu so I could move out of the novice division and face stiffer competition. Which translates to getting my ass kicked more frequently.
        Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that kickboxing is commonly known as fighting while grappling simply isn't. - Osiris


          Originally posted by Hook
          i would also like to mention that I have used bjj in streetfights and they were the easiest fights of my life,attacked from behind,attacked multiple opponents,and attacked by with a bat.Won all three fights and a couple of the guys were actually cool enough to say that they never knew something like that existed and asked where they could learn something like that.
          This is like the ultimate BS. One of the biggest fish stories I have ever heard.

          So, please fill us in on the details, how did you beat multiple opponents with BJJ? Were you able to close gaurd all three of them at one time? LOL.


            You really should look at the post dates. The guy you're questioning hasn't posted since 2004.

            Now lovely Lucifer, in hell so stark
            King, and lord of sin and pride
            With some mist his wits make dark.
            He send thee grace to be thy guide



              Necromancing ancient troll threads should really=BAN.


                I agree, unless you really honestly truly have an important update.




                    While we're at it, it's been a year and a half and noone's yet completed my kosen judo scavenger hunt.

                    "The only important elements in any society
                    are the artistic and the criminal,
                    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
                    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany



                    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children


                      Hm. Some advanced necromancy right there, but I have to admit the 2005 discussion about gaining belts was interesting. The original stuff.. Complete "My daddy will beat up all your daddies" bullshit.
                      Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.


                        Hell, I remember this damn thread when I was lurking in 2005...... Oh, the memories.
                        Dan Severn loves raping people.


                          Not bashing Judo, but if BJJ was ineffective the US Army would not have incorporated it into their hand to hand combat manual nor would they be holding regular tournaments.



                            That same argument has been used in defence of wing chun, and TKD, so it's hardly a ringing endorsement.


                              Originally posted by blackfish
                              Not bashing Judo, but if BJJ was ineffective the US Army would not have incorporated it into their hand to hand combat manual nor would they be holding regular tournaments.

                              effective as it is, not a great argument.
                              "low bidder, and the people we're teaching it to think it works" are really the only requirements for the army to consider incorporating it.. -_-
                              it just so happens that bjj is effective.
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