BJJ inferior to Kosen Judo

[Te No Kage!]

I was under the impression that the "kosen judo" that is aft spoken of is a particular Japanese university judo club that just specializes in ne waza as with the rest of the normal curriculum. Every Judo club is different but we mix BJJ and Judo which gives a balanced 50/50 ne waza to tachi waza mix.

[black mamba]

Umm.. dunno where you train Judo buddy but at my club, which is Kodokan Judo, it would take about 6-10 years to get to black belt...

It depends how much you train, but in japan its common place get a blackbelt within a year. They train twice/thrice a day and everyday over in japan.

[black mamba]

Wrong.



Most clubs train 50% ground and 50% standing, or something pretty close to that.

Whats wrong, i dunno any judo black belt that took ten years to get a black belt. And we have national team players at our club.

[lawdog]

Whats wrong, i dunno any judo black belt that took ten years to get a black belt. And we have national team players at our club.

Your entire post was incorrect. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

[black mamba]

Your entire post was incorrect. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Not that you can can prove me wrong. But what is incorrect about my entire post and what dont I know what i'm talking about? If you have the facts to prove me wrong. Let them out.

[Yrkoon9]

I got a brown in 2 years of Judo. Of course I was training all the time and did every single competition that came along. I think with 3 years I could have gotten my black belt.

But then again, if you train 2x per week and don't compete very often it would probably take you 5 years. And IMHO its pretty easy to advance in Judo. Learn the mechanics and compete. With BJJ there is so much other BS you have to deal with it takes longer.

[lawdog]

I got a brown in 2 years of Judo. Of course I was training all the time and did every single competition that came along. I think with 3 years I could have gotten my black belt.

But then again, if you train 2x per week and don't compete very often it would probably take you 5 years. And IMHO its pretty easy to advance in Judo. Learn the mechanics and compete. With BJJ there is so much other BS you have to deal with it takes longer.

Your experience is very atypical. The average length of time to receive a black belt in judo (at least in the U.S.) is 8-10 yrs. depending on how often you train, how often you compete, and how often you win in competition. If I remember the statistic correctly, it was something like 2000 hrs. on the mat, plus tournament wins.

In 20 yrs., the quickest I ever saw anybody receive black was 4 yrs. He had been a former collegiate wrestler and already won Nationals (maybe twice by that time) as a brown.

I'm sure it happens more quickly, but it's not common.

[Hannibal]

I got a brown in 2 years of Judo. Of course I was training all the time and did every single competition that came along. I think with 3 years I could have gotten my black belt.

But then again, if you train 2x per week and don't compete very often it would probably take you 5 years. And IMHO its pretty easy to advance in Judo. Learn the mechanics and compete. With BJJ there is so much other BS you have to deal with it takes longer.

Please expand on your last paragraph. How do you mean in BJJ it takes longer because of the extra bullshit ? Not trying to flame you. Just curious.

[xingyifa]

OK OK...pre war judo effortlessly defeats that sloppy BJJ but we all know pre war aikido defeats judo!

Aikido wins again! :rolleyes:

EDIT: Just to be clear, that was a joke.

[dramaboy]

And IMHO its pretty easy to advance in Judo. Learn the mechanics and compete. With BJJ there is so much other BS you have to deal with it takes longer.

This is true. You don't have to win in judo to promote.
In BJJ you have to tap people to promote.
And consequently: BJJ rank is a better indicator of skill than a judo rank.

Tomas

[gabro]

You don't have to win in judo to promote.
In BJJ you have to tap people to promote.
And consequently: BJJ rank is a better indicator of skill than a judo rank.

Tomas

In which country? In UK you have to win to promote (BJA and judoscotland, but possibly not BJC) by ippon or waza-ari, yuko and koka do not count.

I see that I tried to be to subtle in my previous post. My point was that no one outside of Japan does Kosen Judo, but it has achieved near mythical status as being a kind of BJJ-Ultra with extra helpings of everything.

On another note, I get to try BJJ this week. Never done it before and looking forward to it.

[lawdog]

This is true. You don't have to win in judo to promote.
In BJJ you have to tap people to promote.
And consequently: BJJ rank is a better indicator of skill than a judo rank.

Tomas

Perhaps it's changed, I haven't looked at it in a while and don't feel like looking it up right now. However, when I was coming up through the ranks you had to win in order to advance in rank. In fact, I believe you had to beat a certain number of judoka who outrank you, in order to advance.

This might also have been a specific requirement of my club, it's been a while and I don't recall.

[ImAlrdyNum]

Perhaps it's changed, I haven't looked at it in a while and don't feel like looking it up right now. However, when I was coming up through the ranks you had to win in order to advance in rank. In fact, I believe you had to beat a certain number of judoka who outrank you, in order to advance.

This might also have been a specific requirement of my club, it's been a while and I don't recall.

My club grades according to USJI standards, and rank criteria is based on time in grade, and points earned: service points(working tournaments), and competition points. You earn points for beating someone of the same or higher rank, higher the rank the more points are awarded.

You don't have to compete to earn ranks, it just takes a hell of a lot longer. I started Judo July 2004, and I've competed in and won or placed in 6 tournaments since then. I made sankyu last month, which in my club is a brown belt, other clubs may not wear brown until ikkyu. It should take me at least another year and a half to shodan, first black, not that I care.

[Yrkoon9]

I guess I need to explain a few things further.

In Judo I was promoted faster than other students who trained with me because I did well in competitions. My first Judo competition I had 7 matches and got 3rd place. I competed less than 3 months later and got 1st. In that time I did a lot of studying and as our belts were broken down into categories of 8 throws and a corresponding number of newaza techniques it was very easy for me to learn them. I bought a book, learned all the rules and terminology and kept competing. I went got green belt in like a year. But that still kept me in the novice division. Which meant I was still able to crush the little white/yellow belts.

In order for me to compete against higher level guys they promoted me to brown very early. Most tournaments did a brown/black division, and everyone else in the novice division. So although I 'knew' the techniques neccessary for promotion it was more a justification for better competition for our club. Looking back I was pushed through rather quickly. And to be honest, I didn't have the time in grade to compete with these black belts. I got Ipponed fairly frequently in competition.

But the politics of Judo were almost zero. Formal training, formal competitions, and then formal promotion. Easy.

BJJ has been much harder. I have been promoted again by performance and competition sake over anything else. I got my blue in less than 6 months because of my Judo background, fierce competition schedule, and training discipline. But I sorta hung back at blue and quit for a while. When I came back I had to climb the conditioning & injuries hill again. Then we moved. I got with another instructor and althrough I was already a very seasoned blue belt there was no way I was going to get promoted. I had 'earn' my promotion from the new instructor. He wanted to see loyalty. He wanted to see me win divisions. He wanted to see me tap out every blue belt ever created. Unreasonable expectations. I should have been a purple belt long before I was promoted.

The politics are weird with BJJ. Of course you have to be able to eat most blue belts. But you also have to demonstrate loyalty, etc. On top of that my instructor is notorious for not promoting people, and is a Carlson black belt. A double whammy in terms of Americans getting a belt. He wanted me to keep winning for him as a blue belt. I was tired of winning as a blue belt. I wanted stiffer competition. So I bought a purple belt, told him I wasn't ever going to compete again as a blue and if he wanted me to compete for him he would have to give me his blessing to compete in purple. He VERY grudgingly did so. My first tournament I lost to a referee decision. So he could smugly sit and say I wasn't ready. Months went by and I competed again as a purple. Didn't make it to the finals. Got 3rd. He had to admit I could hang there. But wouldn't test us. Months go by. FINALLY get promoted. Took fucking forever. If it were Judo it would have been done. None of this egotistical instuctor bullshit.

So what I am saying is I had to jump through more hoops in BJJ. Judo was real easy. Learn the technique and then compete and win. BJJ I had to win, but I had to win win win win win. Then demonstrate loyalty. My instructor wasnt going to take me as a student and promote me to purple a month later.

Now to finish off the bullshit the tests are insane. I have described them elsewhere. Suffice to say in order for me to get brown I could die in the test. I think its crap. So I don't think I will get brown from him. Too much of a hassle.

[dramaboy]

Perhaps it's changed, I haven't looked at it in a while and don't feel like looking it up right now. However, when I was coming up through the ranks you had to win in order to advance in rank. In fact, I believe you had to beat a certain number of judoka who outrank you, in order to advance.

This might also have been a specific requirement of my club, it's been a while and I don't recall.

You can promote as "non-competitor". That means you do not have to collect points by competing in regular shiai. You have to have certain time in rank, be certain age, have certain amount of points from kata competitions, helping at score tables, weigh ins and such at shiais, demonstrate the technique and (I think) do the kohaku shiai. But you dont have to win.
This is USJF rules. USJA is I think slightly different, the club has more say in your promotion up to shodan.

And to be clear: I don't think this is in any way detrimental to judo. Our kids' coach was a non-competitor, and he was/is a great kids' coach.

Tomas