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    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Depends on how you define specific sparring, but yeah I call pretty much anything other than a live free roll a drill. It helps my students figure out that I expect them to be learning not winning. One of my favorites is "short time drills." Even then I had problems with students trying to immediately move to their A game. For instance I was setting guys up where one already had the single leg up and elevated(to try and teach how to defend from a bad situation). This one numpty would immediately let go of the single and try to pull guard. After telling him not to do that 5 or 6 times, I dropped him down for 300 push ups. He never did learn, but he developed a nice set of shoulders. It was instructive for the majority of the rest of the class.

    Honestly IMO one of the biggest problems facing BJJ/GJJ is that people hear "drill" and they think no-resistance. Whereas a continuum of resistance is frankly best for learning.

    Another set of drills I learned from Andre(since he came up) and use regularly when teaching the beginners class are mount escape drills. First you do the non-resistant thing. Then you put them in a dynamic chain. Then you go to only allowing the guy on top to do basic defenses. Then graduate up to positional sparring(no submissions). Then short time drill(say 40 seconds) of sparring with limited submissions(either chokes or arm bars you pick em). Then short time drills with full submissions.


    See, that right there is pro-level teaching of beginners grappling.

    In general, you can't have people doing stuff that is too complicated, including complicated resistance patterns. Because at that level, nobody has enough knowledge or control to do that.

    When I was coaching/teaching Judo, it would take weeks and months and years to get to the level of control necessary to do the various drills and train sequences of grip/move/throw/transition at full speed, safely.

    Then you get into player A does one thing, and player b can counter with a range of options instead of just one option. So both guys have to know multiple things to make it work correctly.

    A person watching would think they were doing full-speed randori or even competing.

    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

    Comment


      Originally posted by goodlun View Post

      Yeah I was working off of the sort of standard Nomenclature that I am use to.
      You will notice Rayce caught the same vibe I did due to this as well.
      Yeah I have no issue with dead drills to learn a proper body movement, or finishing position or getting proper breaking pressure or any number of things.
      Just if I where doing 3 days of training like I do, I wouldn't use one of those days to go to a class that is nothing but that.
      I am happy enough to use 1 of those days to perhaps go to a class that is more focused with more positional or technical sparring sure.
      Right, but we do not know Lantern3's level at grappling, or exactly what sort of grappling he is training, either.

      I would say that I would, in general, not run a whole class on "dead" drilling. It's too boring even for noobs. The concept of chaining/action-reaction is very important. You have to train with the end product in mind.

      However, if you have guys who can stand it, repeating patterns can be helpful, especially for some people.
      Falling for Judo since 1980

      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

      Comment


        Originally posted by goodlun View Post

        I have had the pleasure(?) of experiencing this..... unfortunately I was experienced enough to know that was a result of them being olympic level Judoka vs me just being shitty.
        Well, you have an advantage of having been and still around high-level grapplers. Not everybody gets that.
        Falling for Judo since 1980

        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

        Comment


          Originally posted by BKR View Post
          The concept of chaining/action-reaction is very important. You have to train with the end product in mind.
          Yeah, so here is where I will be clear about what keeps me at a lower level than I likely should be at.
          Is the proficiency in attacking in combinations. Working on it, when we drill we do drill in tight little clusters of things that transition from one thing to the other and back and all of that.
          It was funny my child finally got that finally a couple of weeks back like it just clicked, that they all connect together while drilling. You know after weeks(months? years?) of trying to get it to click.
          However to wit on my point though I drill combination attacks but I am still not "proficient" at it I don't feel dead pattern drilling it 1000 or 10000 times would make me more proficient at it.
          The aliveness part of it is when things really "click" for me maybe it is because it is when you really start to see real actions reactions and you can start to really predict what they are going to do next.
          I have to admit, that predicting and reacting thing hits those pattern sensing centers and rewards centers of the brain like a freaking freight train.
          Of course none of this is new to anyone that coaches, teaches, or participates in an alive task.
          Yeah dead pattern drilling has its place, if I had infinite time I would be more willing to dedicate a little more time to it for sure.
          Alas I only have around 2 hours of training per day(and of course 2 of the days I don't lay out the class structure anyways).
          Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
          –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

          Comment


            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            Well, you have an advantage of having been and still around high-level grapplers. Not everybody gets that.
            Worse yet, it really the majority of my exposure, I have seen a little bit of community center judo....that wasn't what I was use to seeing for judo especially the ground work.....
            Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
            –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

            Comment


              Originally posted by Dung Beatles View Post
              .

              Edit: I mean, at least feint an RNC to get him to extend something. What I like to do is put my knuckes against the side of their jawline right below the ear. It's uncomfortable as fuck and the other guy will chap at it pretty quickly and start moving around more.
              Pressure point bullshit only works on people that are bitch made. If you do a toughness check on me you likely will not care for the answer. I will also be insulted you thought pain compliance was a viable option against me.
              If I am kind enough to let you last and move around for a a bit and you do some dumb shit like that...... you can pretty much guarantee I'll be slamming you hard and RNCing your nose in less than 10 seconds.



              "Anything goes but He'll take it personal."
              The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post

                Pressure point bullshit only works on people that are bitch made. If you do a toughness check on me you likely will not care for the answer. I will also be insulted you thought pain compliance was a viable option against me.
                If I am kind enough to let you last and move around for a a bit and you do some dumb shit like that...... you can pretty much guarantee I'll be slamming you hard and RNCing your nose in less than 10 seconds.



                "Anything goes but He'll take it personal."
                Yep. They taught us a bunch of pressure point shit when I went through the academy. Not as much as my brother who went through the academy in Alabama. They use to do all that Pressure point control tactic shit. So, one they taught was this hollow behind the ear thing. Which is that little indention right behind the ear lobe. You can stick your thumb in there and it hurts.

                Well, one time I had a guy on the ground and was trying to cuff him up. He had his hands under his body where I couldn't get to them. So I buried my thumb all the way to the knuckle in his hollow behind the ear. It didn't do shit. After repeated attempts with no success I had to use some alternate methods that are not necessarily spelled out exactly in the use of force guidelines. I learned a good lesson about pressure points against an opponent that is legitimately resisting.

                They work only when someone's inconvenience factor outweighs their resistance desire.
                Combatives training log.

                Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

                Drum thread

                Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

                "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

                Comment


                  If we move into Dim Mak territory, I'm buying rounds. "Pressure point" bullshido aside, knowing how to manipulate the nervous system is a thing, the vasovagal blood choke being one obvious example, but there are others.

                  So many fun nerves to play with, if you have a willing partner of course.
                  ​​​

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by goodlun View Post

                    Worse yet, it really the majority of my exposure, I have seen a little bit of community center judo....that wasn't what I was use to seeing for judo especially the ground work.....
                    Really, community center judo is more of the norm in the USA. It's like any other sport, most folks are pretty low level at what they do for recreation.
                    Falling for Judo since 1980

                    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                      Yeah, so here is where I will be clear about what keeps me at a lower level than I likely should be at.
                      Is the proficiency in attacking in combinations. Working on it, when we drill we do drill in tight little clusters of things that transition from one thing to the other and back and all of that.
                      It was funny my child finally got that finally a couple of weeks back like it just clicked, that they all connect together while drilling. You know after weeks(months? years?) of trying to get it to click.
                      However to wit on my point though I drill combination attacks but I am still not "proficient" at it I don't feel dead pattern drilling it 1000 or 10000 times would make me more proficient at it.
                      The aliveness part of it is when things really "click" for me maybe it is because it is when you really start to see real actions reactions and you can start to really predict what they are going to do next.
                      I have to admit, that predicting and reacting thing hits those pattern sensing centers and rewards centers of the brain like a freaking freight train.
                      Of course none of this is new to anyone that coaches, teaches, or participates in an alive task.
                      Yeah dead pattern drilling has its place, if I had infinite time I would be more willing to dedicate a little more time to it for sure.
                      Alas I only have around 2 hours of training per day(and of course 2 of the days I don't lay out the class structure anyways).
                      Sure, you do what you like and works for you.

                      You can design drills in which your partner has options as to how she reacts to whatever you are doing, with of course different levels of resistance. In general, it's important to have "success" at what you are doing, as you noted, so you have to adjust accordingly. Failing over and over again is not conducive to effective learning.

                      You go from that sort of thing to what in judo we call randori. Or, as MIchael noted "short time drills" that add time pressure, and thus adrenaline, but not same as full out 5 minutes of hard rolling.

                      Eventually, things begin to "click".

                      Eventually, also, the ultimate test is competition. Full on adrenaline with an unknown opponent.



                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post

                        Pressure point bullshit only works on people that are bitch made. If you do a toughness check on me you likely will not care for the answer. I will also be insulted you thought pain compliance was a viable option against me.
                        If I am kind enough to let you last and move around for a a bit and you do some dumb shit like that...... you can pretty much guarantee I'll be slamming you hard and RNCing your nose in less than 10 seconds.



                        "Anything goes but He'll take it personal."
                        See, Dung Beatles, what I meant?

                        After a while, the only thing that knuckle grinding shit does is piss people off. I used to be like Rayce, but I'm an old softy now. I still have the attitude, but...well, it's mostly attitude anyway.

                        I remember a guy started doing straight knee locks to me in judo practice, once upon a time. Without telling me he was going to do it, while we were rolling.

                        I was like, OK, if you want it that way...

                        I had him begging to let him breath in about 5 seconds.

                        Falling for Judo since 1980

                        "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                        "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                        "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post

                          you can pretty much guarantee I'll be slamming you hard and RNCing your nose in less than 10 seconds.
                          Less about compliance and more about making the turtling guy move. The point is it's annoying and they'll be motivated to move around some.
                          "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by BKR View Post

                            See, Dung Beatles, what I meant?

                            After a while, the only thing that knuckle grinding shit does is piss people off. I used to be like Rayce, but I'm an old softy now. I still have the attitude, but...well, it's mostly attitude anyway.

                            I remember a guy started doing straight knee locks to me in judo practice, once upon a time. Without telling me he was going to do it, while we were rolling.

                            I was like, OK, if you want it that way...

                            I had him begging to let him breath in about 5 seconds.
                            Straight knee locks are a whole other thing. You can hurt someone like that.
                            "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by BKR View Post

                              Good lord, man, you have zero experience, don't you?
                              I definitely do not have as much experience as Rayce or you.

                              I should have been more clear, the point isn't to bear down on them like you're trying to hurt them. The point is to annoy, not cause lingering pain or bear down with any real force . It's not about compliance it's about getting the turtle to move, especially if they're baiting a RNC and turtling. Personally, I'd be more insulted by the RNC bait.
                              "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Dung Beatles View Post

                                Straight knee locks are a whole other thing. You can hurt someone like that.
                                Literally one of the attacks you have to worry about from a turtled opponent.
                                Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                                –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

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