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    Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

    https://www.bjjee.com/articles/black-belt-denounces-widespread-arrogance-championitis-in-bjj/?fbclid=IwAR3-VCuxeh9f2giCBCY6La8dhd4K7FFT3n5RHz_tQBn6gbumTl80It 2tkU

    Gael Coadic, founder of Gracie Barra Fox Team, kind of goes off on a rant.
    Its hard for me to agree with him but I don't really see or experience this whole BJJ mindset he speaks of.
    I have seen the competitive BJJ guys respect the fuck out and cross train in Judo, SAMBO, and Wrestling(while constantly watching members of those groups try and disrespect the fuck out BJJ).
    Is their a bit of arrogance? Also yes, but is it arrogance when its well earned?
    Anyways Those of you that have different experiences than I, I would love to hear from.
    Almost always when I see stuff like this, its because they are having a hard time competing against a gym in the area with a champion in it.
    No, I am not willing to talk shit about Gael, its just I have seen a lot of the "Modern BJJ is x talk" I just think that talk has to be more money motivated than respect of the art motivated. With the understanding that sure some of it is respect of the art motivated.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

    #2
    It seems to me most of BJJ is business oriented, so some of his rant may be some sort of marketing. I mean, maybe there is a niche market in BJJ for a more TMA attitude ?

    I don't know. Where I was doing BJJ, there seemed to be a fairly humble attitude, and my Judo knowledge was respected. Of course, my ability to perform was limited. I wasn't there to show BJJ how great Judo is anyway. They are complimentary, to say the least.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BKR View Post
      It seems to me most of BJJ is business oriented, so some of his rant may be some sort of marketing. I mean, maybe there is a niche market in BJJ for a more TMA attitude ?

      I don't know. Where I was doing BJJ, there seemed to be a fairly humble attitude, and my Judo knowledge was respected. Of course, my ability to perform was limited. I wasn't there to show BJJ how great Judo is anyway. They are complimentary, to say the least.
      It certainly isn't uncommon for a BJJ school to have a Judo and or wrestling instructor that teaches at least 1 night a week.
      As for the more TMA Attiude, my understanding is the Gracie Bara is much more along those lines, with things like only white & Blue Gis, bowing in and out, calling people instructors with 3 or more stripes Professor, not asking higher belts to role, having to buy the schools gis, patches, and rash guards. Of course this isn't limited to only Gracie Bara but their are BJJ schools that have a lot of pomp and circumstance and really care about Honorfics, tradition and "discipline"
      I am happy that there are schools for people who want that.
      I am also extremely happy that I have the option to NOT go to a school like that.
      Though the School I am at right now, kind of walks that line a bit more than I would like but the small class sizes, cheap price, and quality instruction makes up for the more culty aspects of it.
      Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
      –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

      Comment


        #4
        Something I realized when I compared bjj so some of the more traditional arts and RBSD that I have done was that innovation is driven by the excellence of its students rather than the wisdom of its founders.

        So you get as a result of this super competitive color belts who can reliably tap out black belts. Regardless of that black belts contribution to the art.

        I don't think that is arrogance it just is.

        And look I am getting older and rolling slower and can't compete as well against younger fitter guys myself. And that isn't arrogance on their part if they flog me.

        It is just part of the process that drives the whole art forwards.
        Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
        http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by gregaquaman View Post
          Something I realized when I compared bjj so some of the more traditional arts and RBSD that I have done was that innovation is driven by the excellence of its students rather than the wisdom of its founders.

          So you get as a result of this super competitive color belts who can reliably tap out black belts. Regardless of that black belts contribution to the art.

          I don't think that is arrogance it just is.

          And look I am getting older and rolling slower and can't compete as well against younger fitter guys myself. And that isn't arrogance on their part if they flog me.

          It is just part of the process that drives the whole art forwards.
          BJJ is weird. I have watched Competitive Black Belts make hobbyist(maybe not the fairest word) Black Belts look like white belts.
          The way I like to describe BJJ to people that don't get the rank structure and the difference between competitive and non-competitive is like this.
          Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong people.

          Blue Belt - AS in Grappling
          Purple Belt - BS in Grappling
          Brown Belt - MS in Grappling
          Black Belt - PhD in Grappling

          A Competitive Blue Belt is like someone with an AS and an Internship in their field.
          A Competitive Purple Belt is like someone with a BS and real work experience in their field but lets say less than 5 years.
          Anyways I am sure you can see the pattern.

          Then you get the Jr. Blue Belt that is competitive and that guy, that guy is like the bosses son that has had to work in the field on his off hours all the dang time.
          A lot to learn still but that base of knowledge is pretty damn good.
          Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
          –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by goodlun View Post
            BJJ is weird. I have watched Competitive Black Belts make hobbyist(maybe not the fairest word) Black Belts look like white belts.
            The way I like to describe BJJ to people that don't get the rank structure and the difference between competitive and non-competitive is like this.
            Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong people.

            Blue Belt - AS in Grappling
            Purple Belt - BS in Grappling
            Brown Belt - MS in Grappling
            Black Belt - PhD in Grappling

            A Competitive Blue Belt is like someone with an AS and an Internship in their field.
            A Competitive Purple Belt is like someone with a BS and real work experience in their field but lets say less than 5 years.
            Anyways I am sure you can see the pattern.

            Then you get the Jr. Blue Belt that is competitive and that guy, that guy is like the bosses son that has had to work in the field on his off hours all the dang time.
            A lot to learn still but that base of knowledge is pretty damn good.
            By the time someone is a black belt in BJJ,

            which historically took about ten years of regular practice a few times or more a week,

            they usually know the basics, and usually are specialists in a couple, or a few areas of the game.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
              By the time someone is a black belt in BJJ,

              which historically took about ten years of regular practice a few times or more a week,

              they usually know the basics, and usually are specialists in a couple, or a few areas of the game.
              Knowing full well that I sit on top of Mt Stupid and its all pontificate, I often times wonder how I would structure a school a class or a program.
              In particular I like to just ponder how I would do it in the confines and benefits of formal Academia including the general ed requirements I would want to see.
              IE, Sports Psychology, Contract Law, Business ethics, small business accounting, small business law, ect.
              Then I go huh how, how would you structure a program staying within the Credit hour guide lines that covers all the dang things you need to cover.
              I assume we could use PE credits that gives you more hours vs Credit unit.
              Its been a bit more on my mind today cause I listened to Lachlan Giles talk with Keenan about how they run their academies.
              Of course for me its nothing more than a thought experiment I highly doubt I would ever even want to run an academy even if I where ever qualified to do so.
              To both my determine and benefit I do take a pretty cerebral approach to BJJ. So pondering how I would structure teaching also forces me to ponder how I structure my own learning.
              Of course their is some give and take on that front cause I have an instructor that has a curriculum and that is lets say the 0%-80% of how I am going to learn.
              But their are other resources instructionals, matches, match break downs, osmosis, ect.
              I did find it interesting that Lachlan did say he found the Ryan Hall instructional to be useful.
              Of course any time I can listen to Lister, Hall, Keenan talk for free, I certainly try and make the time to listen.
              Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
              –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                Knowing full well that I sit on top of Mt Stupid and its all pontificate, I often times wonder how I would structure a school a class or a program.
                In particular I like to just ponder how I would do it in the confines and benefits of formal Academia including the general ed requirements I would want to see.
                IE, Sports Psychology, Contract Law, Business ethics, small business accounting, small business law, ect.
                Then I go huh how, how would you structure a program staying within the Credit hour guide lines that covers all the dang things you need to cover.
                I assume we could use PE credits that gives you more hours vs Credit unit.
                Its been a bit more on my mind today cause I listened to Lachlan Giles talk with Keenan about how they run their academies.
                Of course for me its nothing more than a thought experiment I highly doubt I would ever even want to run an academy even if I where ever qualified to do so.
                To both my determine and benefit I do take a pretty cerebral approach to BJJ. So pondering how I would structure teaching also forces me to ponder how I structure my own learning.
                Of course their is some give and take on that front cause I have an instructor that has a curriculum and that is lets say the 0%-80% of how I am going to learn.
                But their are other resources instructionals, matches, match break downs, osmosis, ect.
                I did find it interesting that Lachlan did say he found the Ryan Hall instructional to be useful.
                Of course any time I can listen to Lister, Hall, Keenan talk for free, I certainly try and make the time to listen.
                We really should have everybody take a CPR and First Aid course before we teach them offensive techniques.

                Learning how to fall being neck and neck for being required before we put anybody to grapple on the ground or standing.

                And being arguably the most useful self-defense skill we teach...

                (Psst...which actually means the Aikido guys are not worthless from a self-defense perspective, after all...)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                  We really should have everybody take a CPR and First Aid course before we teach them offensive techniques.

                  Learning how to fall being neck and neck for being required before we put anybody to grapple on the ground or standing.

                  And being arguably the most useful self-defense skill we teach...

                  (Psst...which actually means the Aikido guys are not worthless from a self-defense perspective, after all...)
                  Indeed, knowing how to fall is super important. The fact is learning First Aid and CPR isn't even that much of a time commitment, its been year since I have had to do it, and it would be well worth doing again.
                  I can only imagine that the university that I work for has free classes that I could likely get into.

                  The mention of break falling has me thinking that one of the things I think Danaher does very well, is he goes back to the Judo well and pulls out a lot of great things and applies them position-ally then starts linking stuff into a system of transitions and problem solving.
                  Kind of what brings that up is I am watching:


                  God damn that kid is technical, that is why I like to watch him.
                  Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                  –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                    Indeed, knowing how to fall is super important. The fact is learning First Aid and CPR isn't even that much of a time commitment, its been year since I have had to do it, and it would be well worth doing again.
                    I can only imagine that the university that I work for has free classes that I could likely get into.

                    The mention of break falling has me thinking that one of the things I think Danaher does very well, is he goes back to the Judo well and pulls out a lot of great things and applies them position-ally then starts linking stuff into a system of transitions and problem solving.
                    Kind of what brings that up is I am watching:


                    God damn that kid is technical, that is why I like to watch him.
                    You deserve an answer to this excellent post.

                    But, I have to work up the mental fortitude and commitment to watch the ten minute Gordon Ryan video.

                    So, please pardon a delay in response.

                    I'll get to it, eventually.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BKR View Post
                      It seems to me most of BJJ is business oriented, so some of his rant may be some sort of marketing. I mean, maybe there is a niche market in BJJ for a more TMA attitude ?

                      I don't know. Where I was doing BJJ, there seemed to be a fairly humble attitude, and my Judo knowledge was respected. Of course, my ability to perform was limited. I wasn't there to show BJJ how great Judo is anyway. They are complimentary, to say the least.
                      Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits.

                      So much of the curriculum is, for all the name changes, the same in theory. BJJ isn't so far removed from Judo because of physics (my source for that is Kano Jigoro), minus some new trick moves developed in just the last 30 odd years that are basically just new applications of very, very old themes.

                      That said I agree with Goodun, that at least from a spectator POV, Judo and BJJ are very different in sporting contexts.

                      As far as arrogance...the circle is now complete. BJJ pajamas. I need to get these.

                      https://www.jiujitsujammies.com/

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                        Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits. So much of the curriculum is, for all the name changes, the same in theory. BJJ isn't so far removed from Judo because of physics (my source for that is Kano Jigoro), minus some new trick moves developed in just the last 30 odd years.

                        That said I agree with Goodun, that at least from a spectator POV, Judo and BJJ are very different in sporting contexts.

                        As far as arrogance...the circle is now complete. BJJ pajamas. I need to get these.

                        https://www.jiujitsujammies.com/
                        You will be extremely hard pressed to find a "BJJ move" that is not in some black and white Judo book picture, somewhere...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                          We really should have everybody take a CPR and First Aid course before we teach them offensive techniques.

                          Learning how to fall being neck and neck for being required before we put anybody to grapple on the ground or standing.

                          And being arguably the most useful self-defense skill we teach...

                          (Psst...which actually means the Aikido guys are not worthless from a self-defense perspective, after all...)
                          Ukemi is one place I think young BJJ students should not overlook and probably suffer the "arrogance" issue.

                          All the focus on competitive groundwork does miss a few key tenets of Judo. Breakfalls are so fundamental and important to practically every Judo session, but I wonder if it's given the same respect outside Judo.

                          The key problem with Aikido is the lack of aliveness, which ends up showing its true colors when sparring against non-Aikidoka.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                            The key problem with Aikido is the lack of aliveness, which ends up showing its true colors when sparring against non-Aikidoka.
                            Yes, but they often fall beautifully, and skillfully.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
                              You will be extremely hard pressed to find a "BJJ move" that is not in some black and white Judo book picture, somewhere...
                              Exactly. If anything's really "evolved" about BJJ it's the experimentation that has occurred.

                              Things like weird guards and stuff are the result of BJJ coloring outside the lines of the Kodokan schema, etc and usually seem spawned from competiton. Was a "worm guard" never used in Judo newaza back in the day? I'm sure somebody did it, it was just never memorialized and given a name until recently.

                              I think that's the "arrogance" bit, the lack of respect for history. You can see a lot of teens now making BJJ commentary videos about other arts and lambasting them as inferior. Especially if they are Asian...and some of those arts are alive, and even competitive.

                              They might know what a kimura is, but not who Kimura was. So to them, anything that came before Jits was crap and Jits fixed everything. I know I felt that way in 1993..but what the fuck did I really know? I hadn't even taken a Judo class yet.
                              Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/05/2020 2:20pm, .

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