Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

[W. Rabbit]

The Samurai, while they were fighting, were largely ignorant, savage, backwards, often illiterate, and behaved little different than crude bandits.

It was after the "Samurai" were no longer a fighting class, but bureaucratic administrators in nature, that all the literacy and poetry, etc, etc came into play.

Two different kinds of elitists, to be sure.

One set, ignorant thugs.

The other, bureaucrats, just like bureaucrats throughout history have enjoyed the smell of their own farts.

We will disagree on the poetry thing, because Miyamoto Musashi's, Japan's patron sword-saint, and others were introducing martial poetry and Zen to the Samurai in the 17th century and even earlier. It is a lot older than the 19th century end of Japanese feudalism.

But consider that Takenouchi Ryu, the oldest koryu, was a very comprehensive, highly formal and organized system of training that included many elements other than fighting. It included practically everything still found in Judo as well as medical training (e.g. resuscitation techniques) and weapons drills, tactics, etc.

So naturally, fast forward half a millennium, people from this particular koryu lineage (even above many others in Japan) consider themselves to be descendants of these legendary Samurai combat and grappling traditions at their peak.

Which, we both know is true on maybe a technical level at best, because many of the koryu do not train as alive as BJJ and may never again, and most (maybe not all) would get smoked by blue belts on the mat.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Kids that stay serious are few and far between. A 15 or 16 year old that comes to a dojo on their own accord is far more likely to become a black belt and is there because they're into it. Almost all 10 year olds are in fact picking their nose and staring off into space.
The Wayne Gretzky's , Rutulo Twins(sp?) and Jordan Burroughs of the world are few and far between. They exist though.

I have some seen some 10 year olds with heavy handed fathers,

and I mean that literally,

who come into practice on point with the eye of the tiger

because they know if they don't perform well,

serious consequences await them after.

This occurs, but it always leaves me with a tremendous desire to whip the shit out of their father.

[goodlun]

I don't want to be BJJ "arrogant" but seems to me Kimura vs Roger goes to Roger.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I don't want to be BJJ "arrogant" but seems to me Kimura vs Roger goes to Roger.

Well, Kimura was the Sakuraba of his day though, wasn't he.

And his technical prowess on his feet was sufficient to break people's legs with his osoto techniques.

And his technical prowess on the ground regarding the use of the Kimura was so good they named the damn move after him.

The man had a great base, was light on his feet, strong as hell, and certainly knew how to break people's limbs technically.

[jnp]

I have some seen some 10 year olds with heavy handed fathers,

and I mean that literally,

who come into practice on point with the eye of the tiger

because they know if they don't perform well,

serious consequences await them after.

This occurs, but it always leaves me with a tremendous desire to whip the shit out of their father.

[Devil]

I remember grappling Big Willy the Cuban Judo Black Belt when I was in my early 20's.

I was doing BJJ things, that were not legal in Judo.

Willy took it with good graces, and good humor, noting each time, that the techniques I was doing were not legal in Judo.

Then one day, I saw someone irritate Big Willy, and he lifted them up off the ground by their lapel and then whipped into a soto makikomi, breaking some of their ribs, and possible their sternum.

Some of the other players managed to get him into a car, and off to the ER he went.

And then I realized, Big Willy was really being quite nice as I thought I was handily beating him on the ground.

Probably because I was a young kid, in my early 20's and he knew I was full of piss and beans, and I didn't know any better.

[Michael Tzadok]

Kids that stay serious are few and far between. A 15 or 16 year old that comes to a dojo on their own accord is far more likely to become a black belt and is there because they're into it. Almost all 10 year olds are in fact picking their nose and staring off into space.
The Wayne Gretzky's , Rutulo Twins(sp?) and Jordan Burroughs of the world are few and far between. They exist though.

Wayne Gretzky was a a multi-sport athlete up to college/university. So was Burroughs, he was a three sport athlete if I remember correct.

[Dr. Gonzo]

True.

[Raycetpfl]

Wayne Gretzky was a a multi-sport athlete up to college/university. So was Burroughs, he was a three sport athlete if I remember correct.

They're little noodles can only soak in so much technical knowledge. Continuing their athletic training multiple times in a day with multiple Sports without burning their brain out makes the most sense for long-term athletic success.

[Raycetpfl]

Well, Kimura was the Sakuraba of his day though, wasn't he.

And his technical prowess on his feet was sufficient to break people's legs with his osoto techniques.

And his technical prowess on the ground regarding the use of the Kimura was so good they named the damn move after him.

The man had a great base, was light on his feet, strong as hell, and certainly knew how to break people's limbs technically.

He's one of my favorite Fighters to watch old footage on. But Roger is the greatest of all time.

[Devil]

I have some seen some 10 year olds with heavy handed fathers,

and I mean that literally,

who come into practice on point with the eye of the tiger

because they know if they don't perform well,

serious consequences await them after.

This occurs, but it always leaves me with a tremendous desire to whip the shit out of their father.

[goodlun]

Well, Kimura was the Sakuraba of his day though, wasn't he.

And his technical prowess on his feet was sufficient to break people's legs with his osoto techniques.

And his technical prowess on the ground regarding the use of the Kimura was so good they named the damn move after him.

The man had a great base, was light on his feet, strong as hell, and certainly knew how to break people's limbs technically.

No doubt, but Roger is way more technical, skilled, and athletic than Helio was at the time of that fight.
Roger isn't a slouch on his feet.

[W. Rabbit]

He's one of my favorite Fighters to watch old footage on. But Roger is the greatest of all time.

LOL sorry but how did I know this would turn into a BJJ GOAT discussion.

Stay classy, BJJ.

[goodlun]

LOL sorry but how did I know this would turn into a BJJ GOAT discussion.

Stay classy, BJJ.

Wait Roger Gracie doesn't have a Judo rank? Man so many of them do .........

[Dr. Gonzo]

No doubt, but Roger is way more technical, skilled, and athletic than Helio was at the time of that fight.
Roger isn't a slouch on his feet.

The question is not how skilled, technical, and athletic Helio was,

but how skilled, athletic, and technical the man

that easily beat him on the feet and on the ground using Jiu-Jitsu was.

Kimura and Roger Gracie were/are both masters of Jiu-Jitsu basics.