Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

[goodlun]

Time for the best mount stupid statement ever but:

All "high level" BJJ is, is fighting to be in position.
Their typically isn't much of a fight to get into position against someone that doesn't know how to fight for position.

[Michael Tzadok]

The name is less important, the point is eddie and joe had never seen it before.
Go watch the after fight interview and Joe Rogan's commentary during the fight. He and Eddie Bravo who was in his ear via the production truck had no idea what they were looking at. They were both skilled jiu jitsu fighters at this point but had never covered the Helio basics/combatives curriculum.

Ok that is crazy. I learned it as a white belt. I learned to call it Von Flu as a blue belt. That was mostly so I could shout out what to do to competitors on the mat.

Not knowing it, that is just crazy.

Then again I've met black belts that didnt know the choke the Gracies call "Nut Cracker". Which is also one of my favorites.

[Raycetpfl]

One of the examples I was shown was in fighting for grips, which is obviously a big part of sport BJJ, but totally changes if you're in a brawl with another person, especially what HM refers to as the "300lb trucker" use case.

No it isn't. Its easy once you're in grappling range. Go look at world star videos. Look how many morons wander into grappling range running their mouth or lack the power to stop a grappler just walking through their shots. The hardest choice is deciding between Tani otoshi and Ura Nage.

All that time and patience and mental chess you see in high level comps goes out the fucking window when someone is just slamming you over and over.

In a street fight? No it doesn't. Its like wrestling with a first day white belt. Unless they are also a skilled grappler.

[goodlun]

I mean all I know is this, I am fucking terrible at BJJ like the fucking worse. But if you take anyone that is with in reason the same size as me and with in reason the same level of athleticism, but completely untrained and you start then in Mount on me. It's a matter of seconds until I am up on top and they be having no time to be dropping bombs unless they want their face to be planted in the ground. Now I can't 100% say this would be true with a real adrenaline dump or if I would freeze up or not. But I have been in Mount with true beginners enough times to know they are completely shity at sitting on top of someone.

[Raycetpfl]

I just always assumed that it was like the "Karelin Lift" or tbr "Gable Grip", that Von Flu just made it famous as the first person to do it in MMA.

I mean old wrestling manuals(pre Dan Gable) call the Gable Grip, the Gordian Knot.

Nevermind various odd club names for things.

The name is less important, the point is eddie and joe had never seen it before.
Go watch the after fight interview and Joe Rogan's commentary during the fight. He and Eddie Bravo who was in his ear via the production truck had no idea what they were looking at. They were both skilled jiu jitsu fighters at this point but had never covered the Helio basics/combatives curriculum.

[W. Rabbit]

I mean that is all true, but let's not act like sport guys don't ramp up their intensity when needed. I mean some don't some do choke under the pressure situations like competition.
But they still are going to do a lot better than most people that don't train or people that do train but not with aliveness.

One of the examples I was shown was in fighting for grips, which is obviously a big part of sport BJJ, but totally changes if you're in a brawl with another person, especially what HM refers to as the "300lb trucker" use case.

All that time and patience and mental chess you see in high level comps goes out the fucking window when someone is just slamming you over and over. The Gracies have always known that because of their roots. But I always see Devil's point here, a lot of BJJ folks think a street fight is going to end up like Gracie vs. Severn, and they won't see the (metaphorical) anal rape coming.

[Devil]

I think some of the "problem" in "sport" BJJ might simply come down to White/Blue belts focusing on counter BJJ instead of good grappling fundamentals because they are looking for a shortcut to win at BJJ.
Good grappling fundamentals will take care of the 80% of "Self Defense"

[goodlun]

I think some of the "problem" in "sport" BJJ might simply come down to White/Blue belts focusing on counter BJJ instead of good grappling fundamentals because they are looking for a shortcut to win at BJJ.
Good grappling fundamentals will take care of the 80% of "Self Defense"

[goodlun]

There's pummeling, and then there's pummeling.

I mean that is all true, but let's not act like sport guys don't ramp up their intensity when needed. I mean some don't some do choke under the pressure situations like competition.
But they still are going to do a lot better than most people that don't train or people that do train but not with aliveness.

[Devil]

To be fair most "sports only" BJJ guys are going to fuck up most people in a "self defense" situation. By "Self Defense" I mean the dumb fights you see people get in over dumb stuff. Not the in the mugging sort of "self defense".
I mean straight up not trolling way they will keep an untrained person off balance enough that they won't be able to through effective strikes even if they dive for something like deep half

I think that is mostly true, eventually. But here’s where the difference in mindset comes into play.....A lot of self-defense focused jiu jitsu schools have the mindset that you shouldn’t be a blue belt until you can defend yourself against most untrained attackers. That’s a GOOD fucking mindset, in my opinion. You shouldn’t train for 6 fucking years and have a purple belt before you’re reasonably equipped to defend yourself against an untrained attacker.

[W. Rabbit]

Right. And I believe that is a common misconception. When I was at the Royce school, they competed. They weren’t anti-competition. They encouraged competing in both grappling and MMA. But their mindset was about self-defense first and foremost.

I think both are hugely valuable. I think sport-only guys tend to discount the value of self defense jiu jitsu because their only experience with it is through discussions of hokey online blue belts who have never rolled live. It taints their perception so much that they refuse to even acknowledge that it might be important to know what to do when somebody tries to punch you.

One of my best instructors ever was an undercover police detective and he was adamant about this fact. When you need to use jiujitsu on the job, it changes everything.

He is part of a VERY successful competition school, but has very clear ideas on what is sport vs. SD when it comes to jiujitsu and I was very grateful to listen in.

It's not rocket science but to put it bluntly, most people are simply not as rough with each other during training as they would in a dangerous SD situation where fear, anger, or intense aggression factor in. The degree just isn't there because training partners don't really want (or shouldn't want) to harm each other. It's mutual benefit time, sparring. That mutual benefit thing ends at the edge of the mat.

There's pummeling, and then there's pummeling.

[goodlun]

To be fair most "sports only" BJJ guys are going to fuck up most people in a "self defense" situation. By "Self Defense" I mean the dumb fights you see people get in over dumb stuff. Not the in the mugging sort of "self defense".
I mean straight up not trolling way they will keep an untrained person off balance enough that they won't be able to through effective strikes even if they dive for something like deep half

[Devil]

That's crazy.

Like I've heard my club called "sport BJJ" because we focus more on the competition stuff than self-defense stuff. By that I mean we run through the self defense curriculum 2-3 months every year and the rest is gi and no gi grappling.

My head black belt, who teaches that, had middling success as a Vales Tudo fighter in Brazil and teaches a couple of the Israeli security forces now, so he knows his shit and will gladly do privates with anyone who wants more of a focus on it..

So I've always assumed that "sport BJJ" was just trash talk by clubs that focused a lot on it, and didnt do as well at BJJ comps.

Clearly I was wrong.

Right. And I believe that is a common misconception. When I was at the Royce school, they competed. They weren’t anti-competition. They encouraged competing in both grappling and MMA. But their mindset was about self-defense first and foremost.

I think both are hugely valuable. I think sport-only guys tend to discount the value of self defense jiu jitsu because their only experience with it is through discussions of hokey online blue belts who have never rolled live. It taints their perception so much that they refuse to even acknowledge that it might be important to know what to do when somebody tries to punch you.

[Michael Tzadok]

You mean like how Eddie Bravo and Jean-Jacques Machado brown belt Joe Rogan( he would have also had Eddie Bravo in his earpiece watching from the production trailer during that UFC broadcast as a technical analyst. Because of this job that Joe Rogan got Eddie Bravo that's why he named a position the truck) named a basic guillotine counteroffensive choke after a crap MMA fighter because he had never seen it before?
All of my students will know this it's part of the Gracie basics as a white belt. The uninitiated know it as the von flu choke

I just always assumed that it was like the "Karelin Lift" or tbr "Gable Grip", that Von Flu just made it famous as the first person to do it in MMA.

I mean old wrestling manuals(pre Dan Gable) call the Gable Grip, the Gordian Knot.

Nevermind various odd club names for things.

[Michael Tzadok]

That's crazy.

Like I've heard my club called "sport BJJ" because we focus more on the competition stuff than self-defense stuff. By that I mean we run through the self defense curriculum 2-3 months every year and the rest is gi and no gi grappling.

My head black belt, who teaches that, had middling success as a Vales Tudo fighter in Brazil and teaches a couple of the Israeli security forces now, so he knows his shit and will gladly do privates with anyone who wants more of a focus on it..

So I've always assumed that "sport BJJ" was just trash talk by clubs that focused a lot on it, and didnt do as well at BJJ comps.

Clearly I was wrong.