Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

[Devil]

BJJ is weird. I have watched Competitive Black Belts make hobbyist(maybe not the fairest word) Black Belts look like white belts.
The way I like to describe BJJ to people that don't get the rank structure and the difference between competitive and non-competitive is like this.
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong people.

Blue Belt - AS in Grappling
Purple Belt - BS in Grappling
Brown Belt - MS in Grappling
Black Belt - PhD in Grappling

A Competitive Blue Belt is like someone with an AS and an Internship in their field.
A Competitive Purple Belt is like someone with a BS and real work experience in their field but lets say less than 5 years.
Anyways I am sure you can see the pattern.

Then you get the Jr. Blue Belt that is competitive and that guy, that guy is like the bosses son that has had to work in the field on his off hours all the dang time.
A lot to learn still but that base of knowledge is pretty damn good.

[BKR]

BJJ and Judo are totally complementary. The problem is you have to be good at both of them to really make it work.

Noobs who do bjj and Judo at the same time, well, it would be better to focus on one or the other.

Personally, I think it would be best to start with Judo, but I'm biased, although I do have some experience with both BJJ and Judo.

In any case, IME, arrogance does not follow any particular art/combat sport.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Belts mean something, but not that much.

People who start grappling as adults are always going to suck in comparison to people who have been grappling since childhood. I’m not talking about newbies. I’m talking about how it’s going to be over the long haul. Nobody even questions that in other sports but it amazes me how so many BJJ practitioners think they’re the shit when they’re just hacks in the grand scheme of things. You don’t get to be Peyton Manning if you start playing football at 20 years old. You just don’t. You don’t get to be jiu jitsu’s equivalent of Peyton Manning either. And any examples you can produce to the contrary are only the result of an immature sport that doesn’t have a fully developed talent pool.

Not according to this asshat:

"75% of all past BJJ black belt world champions started training Jiu-Jitsu after the age of 12"

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/75-of-...the-age-of-12/

That said, when I personally grapple 20 somethings that started at young ages, and who have consistently been training through all those years, I can feel their above average proprioception as it dances with mine.

[Devil]

Not according to this asshat:

"75% of all past BJJ black belt world champions started training Jiu-Jitsu after the age of 12"

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/75-of-...the-age-of-12/

That said, when I personally grapple 20 somethings that started at young ages, and who have consistently been training through all those years, I can feel their above average proprioception as it dances with mine.

I’ll read that and expose all the flaws in your article as soon as I get a chance.

[W. Rabbit]

75% of all world champions, but how does it break down when players are ranked in order of success?

That weighted percentage would be an interesting #. If Devil is right, then the best of those 75% would fall into the youngest percentile, no?

Not according to this asshat:

"75% of all past BJJ black belt world champions started training Jiu-Jitsu after the age of 12"

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/75-of-...the-age-of-12/

That said, when I personally grapple 20 somethings that started at young ages, and who have consistently been training through all those years, I can feel their above average proprioception as it dances with mine.

[Dr. Gonzo]

75% of all world champions, but how does it break down when players are ranked in order of success?

That weighted percentage would be an interesting #. If Devil is right, then the best of those 75% would fall into the youngest percentile, no?

Some do.

And that study is 4 years old.

There is a chance that with every passing year, that as Jiu-Jitsu spreads worldwide were children can be coached up by qualified specialist coaches from a young age up, that the curve will favor younger starting players.

I'll probably update the study this month for giggles and report back.

[Devil]

Some do.

And that study is 4 years old.

There is a chance that with every passing year, that as Jiu-Jitsu spreads worldwide were children can be coached up by qualified specialist coaches from a young age up, that the curve will favor younger starting players.

I'll probably update the study this month for giggles and report back.

I read the article. I’m not suggesting your statistics are wrong. I trust your due diligence. I just think your statistics aren’t that meaningful.

First, my statement was in reference to people who started at 20. You’re talking about 12 or older. There’s a fuckton of difference in 12 and 20. There are a shit ton of champions on your list who started as young teens, which is different from people starting at 20 years old. I also strongly suspect that the average age will fall as the sport matures.

My personal belief is that kids don’t get much out of training before age 10 or so. That’s just my opinion. 10 and 12 aren’t that far apart. So your statistics aren’t really a good argument against the point I’m making.

Do you remember when basketball was young and it was populated by white dudes who worked second jobs? That’s where jiu jitsu is competitively right now, more or less. It is an immature sport. Assuming the sport continues to grow, the days of dudes beginning their training as grown ass men and going on to become champions are numbered.

[Michael Tzadok]

Some do.

And that study is 4 years old.

There is a chance that with every passing year, that as Jiu-Jitsu spreads worldwide were children can be coached up by qualified specialist coaches from a young age up, that the curve will favor younger starting players.

I'll probably update the study this month for giggles and report back.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

I'm basing this on USA Wrestling, and NFL football. Both sports have taken the stance that single sport specialization too early leads to premature peaking and is ultimately detrimental to the long term success of the athlete.

Now yes, they will have to start young enough... but at the same time I'm not sure that the newer trend of highly specialized child athletes is the future either.

[Devil]

Anyway, some other thoughts on the OP....

Is this dude forgetting that BJJ is a sport BUILT on arrogance? What the fuck is he even talking about?

He seems like the same kind of asshat who whines about people being creontes for training at other schools.

Also, it seems to me that he wants belt rank to be respected more than the pressure testing of competition. I think that’s a shitty approach. I realize teaching is a separate skill and not all competitors make good teachers. But at the end of the day, being the baddest motherfucker on the block and putting the most dudes to sleep on the mat is the best measuring stick for respect in BJJ. And guys who use their BJJ to win actual fights deserve the most respect of all. Demian Maia has accomplished more in jiu jitsu and deserves more respect than Buchecha. That’s the way I see it.

[Devil]

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

I'm basing this on USA Wrestling, and NFL football. Both sports have taken the stance that single sport specialization too early leads to premature peaking and is ultimately detrimental to the long term success of the athlete.

Now yes, they will have to start young enough... but at the same time I'm not sure that the newer trend of highly specialized child athletes is the future either.

I don’t disagree. But we haven’t defined what too early is. We’re talking about a wide range of ages, from 10-20.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I read the article. I’m not suggesting your statistics are wrong. I trust your due diligence. I just think your statistics aren’t that meaningful.

First, my statement was in reference to people who started at 20. You’re talking about 12 or older. There’s a fuckton of difference in 12 and 20. There are a shit ton of champions on your list who started as young teens, which is different from people starting at 20 years old. I also strongly suspect that the average age will fall as the sport matures.

My personal belief is that kids don’t get much out of training before age 10 or so. That’s just my opinion. 10 and 12 aren’t that far apart. So your statistics aren’t really a good argument against the point I’m making.

Do you remember when basketball was young and it was populated by white dudes who worked second jobs? That’s where jiu jitsu is competitively right now, more or less. It is an immature sport. Assuming the sport continues to grow, the days of dudes beginning their training as grown ass men and going on to become champions are numbered.

How dare you and I agree in a confrontational manner.

Although there will of course always be outliers, and cross over athletes from other grappling sport rulesets.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

I'm basing this on USA Wrestling, and NFL football. Both sports have taken the stance that single sport specialization too early leads to premature peaking and is ultimately detrimental to the long term success of the athlete.

Now yes, they will have to start young enough... but at the same time I'm not sure that the newer trend of highly specialized child athletes is the future either.

Again, you are making common sense points.

How dare you.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Belt ranks, except to motivate kids, are damn silly things.

I guess we could say to motivate adults, too, but I still find the idea damn silly.

[goodlun]

Anyway, some other thoughts on the OP....

Is this dude forgetting that BJJ is a sport BUILT on arrogance? What the fuck is he even talking about?

Well, a lot of these guys decry sports BJJ.
They want to talk about how their stuff is for fighting or Self Defense.
They want to set the narrative that new school is soft.
Blah blah blah blah.
The problem is the sport side of things is very narrow on top with only a few places really attracting high level competitors.
Or more accurate BJJ has a lot more "professional" players now and their are places where these guys are training and it's only a few gyms.

[goodlun]

Belt ranks, except to motivate kids, are damn silly things.

I guess we could say to motivate adults, too, but I still find the idea damn silly.

Yeah but even without "belts" their is still a "need" for some sort of ranking for a couple of reasons both of which highlight how silly belts are.
Segregation of competitors into the right brackets
Certificating people for instruction
The really funny part is those are completely different things being handled by one system right now.