Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

[W. Rabbit]

Yes, but they often fall beautifully, and skillfully.

They always remind me of this scene from Glory.

[goodlun]

Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits.

Okay I have people that know where I have done Judo in this thread that will 100% back me up on this.
I have done Judo at a Judo school with very good Newaza for a Judo school.
I can confidently say that the average blue belt is going to give a Judo black belt from that school a run for their money.
That school had high standards for Judo Black Belts.
The owner of that Schools Daughter who went to the Olympics two times, studied BJJ to improve on her Newaza and is now a purple belt in BJJ.

The reverse is less true for me, as in I have never been to a BJJ school who is focusing on 50% takedowns I am sure they are out there and I am sure that those takedowns are the mirror image of what I was talking about with the Judo groundwork.

At the high level and this is very generalized I don't think of Judo as throwing and BJJ and ground work.

I think of Judo as teaching Tricks & BJJ teaching Position.

[goodlun]

I know I felt that way in 1993..but what the fuck did I really know?

I am going to get a lot of shit for this, but I have seen a lot of the Grappling circa 1993 and um the BJJ circa that era isn't bad, but its not quite well its not quite what we see today.
And I am not talking about fancy guards or other weird bullshit.
I am talking about when you watch the fundamentals employed.
I am not going to call out any names cause they certainly wouldn't want me to but I have heard a few BJJ Black Belts that started when Fabio Santos came to town pay their respects but say similar things about the over all quality of BJJ.
Of course we have heard very publicly how BJJ is going to shit as well....
So take it as one would take anything with a grain of salt.

[W. Rabbit]

"very good Newaza for a Judo school."

This is the only thing I have an issue with. It almost sounds like "she hits hard, for a girl"or something similar. Like an inherent bias that BJJ is just naturally going to be better for groundwork. I know that's a common perception, but how true is it really?

It was Kimura who broke Helio's arm, after all. Maybe that age of Judo is in the past, but it was still just Judo.

[goodlun]

I suppose I should clarify:
When I say I see it in the fundamentals its not that I am looking out for certain things, but you can really see it in control, the amount of control they can exert over an opponent.
You can watch how much better at flattening someone out and controlling movement from the Mount and the smother transitions that say a modern grappling focused MMA fighter has versus what Royce Gracie doing.
I am certainly not trying to take anything away from Royce, he would kick my ass all over the place up and down and side to side. He was dealing with people with no weight classes or any of that jazz.
The level of positional control you see now is just insanely good.
In many respects that is what I love about BJJ.
It works.

[goodlun]

Like an inherent bias that BJJ is just naturally going to be better for groundwork.

The argument is more like Men are stronger than Women. That is a true statement, but not all men are stronger than all women.

[goodlun]

or a more real world example:
Travis Stevens, now before Travis Stevens cross trained he was very capable of out grappling Hobbyist BJJ Black Belts, and even some lower level competitive BJJ Black Belts.
But to compete at the level he wants to be able to compete at he had to take his Olympic Level work ethic and go see one of the better coaches in the game.
His game was good, so good it took only 18 months to get recognized as a BJJ Black Belt from an instructor that doesn't hand out black belts like they are candy.
So yeah their is a ton of cross over, and yes you can get get at ground work in Judo.
Lets not act like that is the norm. If you walk into a rec center Judo club your not likely to see very high level ground work.

[goodlun]

I should also say I do not know what the fuck I am talking about......

[Dr. Gonzo]

I should also say I do not know what the fuck I am talking about......

I am still trying to figure out how to the basics well, myself.

And to figure out model selection.

But, I will probably forget as fast as I learn going forward,

and my body will continue to degrade as well.

That is, I suppose, why it is important to enjoy the journey in some cases, rather than viewing everything as a goal with a finish line.

Except the comfort of knowing that one day, one moment, you will die, and that can be a final finish line.

[goodlun]

And to figure out model selection.

I am 100% sure, that you need aspects of all the various different models.
You need tricks, you need to know the concepts of those tricks to make them work, you need systems to chain together the tricks.
My over simplified version of BJJ in my head is its two "simple" things.
Its positions and transitions.
With the concept of seeing submission as a position.
So looking at the micro positions and micro transitions is kind of cool.

[Holy Moment]

As a bouncer, I can confirm that BJJ people are incredibly arrogant. I see these meatheads try to start shit with the regulars on almost a weekly basis, and it never ends well for them. Trying to "grapple" a 300 lbs truck driver is like throwing your shoulder into a tree trunk.

[Dr. Gonzo]

As a bouncer, I can confirm that BJJ people are incredibly arrogant. I see these meatheads try to start with the regulars on almost a weekly basis, and it never ends well for them. Trying to "grapple" a 300 lbs truck driver is like throwing your shoulder into a tree trunk.

It's all the flying heel hooks.

[hungryjoe]

It's all the flying heel hooks.

PENIS

[gregaquaman]

I suppose I should clarify:
When I say I see it in the fundamentals its not that I am looking out for certain things, but you can really see it in control, the amount of control they can exert over an opponent.
You can watch how much better at flattening someone out and controlling movement from the Mount and the smother transitions that say a modern grappling focused MMA fighter has versus what Royce Gracie doing.
I am certainly not trying to take anything away from Royce, he would kick my ass all over the place up and down and side to side. He was dealing with people with no weight classes or any of that jazz.
The level of positional control you see now is just insanely good.
In many respects that is what I love about BJJ.
It works.

Yeah see I do bjj in a mma school and basically every influence we get are wrestlejitsu guys. I am exactly the guy who would try to pull someone's arms and legs off. I have had whole round of smother fights with my coach.

I assume I would get taken out the back and shot for t that in some gyms.

But it is also not like I can walk in to a technical gym and just manhandle people.

Their shit works.

[gregaquaman]

As a bouncer, I can confirm that BJJ people are incredibly arrogant. I see these meatheads try to start shit with the regulars on almost a weekly basis, and it never ends well for them. Trying to "grapple" a 300 lbs truck driver is like throwing your shoulder into a tree trunk.

We get a lot more boxers than BJJers.