Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

[goodlun]

And to figure out model selection.

I am 100% sure, that you need aspects of all the various different models.
You need tricks, you need to know the concepts of those tricks to make them work, you need systems to chain together the tricks.
My over simplified version of BJJ in my head is its two "simple" things.
Its positions and transitions.
With the concept of seeing submission as a position.
So looking at the micro positions and micro transitions is kind of cool.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I should also say I do not know what the fuck I am talking about......

I am still trying to figure out how to the basics well, myself.

And to figure out model selection.

But, I will probably forget as fast as I learn going forward,

and my body will continue to degrade as well.

That is, I suppose, why it is important to enjoy the journey in some cases, rather than viewing everything as a goal with a finish line.

Except the comfort of knowing that one day, one moment, you will die, and that can be a final finish line.

[goodlun]

I should also say I do not know what the fuck I am talking about......

[goodlun]

or a more real world example:
Travis Stevens, now before Travis Stevens cross trained he was very capable of out grappling Hobbyist BJJ Black Belts, and even some lower level competitive BJJ Black Belts.
But to compete at the level he wants to be able to compete at he had to take his Olympic Level work ethic and go see one of the better coaches in the game.
His game was good, so good it took only 18 months to get recognized as a BJJ Black Belt from an instructor that doesn't hand out black belts like they are candy.
So yeah their is a ton of cross over, and yes you can get get at ground work in Judo.
Lets not act like that is the norm. If you walk into a rec center Judo club your not likely to see very high level ground work.

[goodlun]

Like an inherent bias that BJJ is just naturally going to be better for groundwork.

The argument is more like Men are stronger than Women. That is a true statement, but not all men are stronger than all women.

[goodlun]

I suppose I should clarify:
When I say I see it in the fundamentals its not that I am looking out for certain things, but you can really see it in control, the amount of control they can exert over an opponent.
You can watch how much better at flattening someone out and controlling movement from the Mount and the smother transitions that say a modern grappling focused MMA fighter has versus what Royce Gracie doing.
I am certainly not trying to take anything away from Royce, he would kick my ass all over the place up and down and side to side. He was dealing with people with no weight classes or any of that jazz.
The level of positional control you see now is just insanely good.
In many respects that is what I love about BJJ.
It works.

[W. Rabbit]

"very good Newaza for a Judo school."

This is the only thing I have an issue with. It almost sounds like "she hits hard, for a girl"or something similar. Like an inherent bias that BJJ is just naturally going to be better for groundwork. I know that's a common perception, but how true is it really?

It was Kimura who broke Helio's arm, after all. Maybe that age of Judo is in the past, but it was still just Judo.

[goodlun]

I know I felt that way in 1993..but what the fuck did I really know?

I am going to get a lot of shit for this, but I have seen a lot of the Grappling circa 1993 and um the BJJ circa that era isn't bad, but its not quite well its not quite what we see today.
And I am not talking about fancy guards or other weird bullshit.
I am talking about when you watch the fundamentals employed.
I am not going to call out any names cause they certainly wouldn't want me to but I have heard a few BJJ Black Belts that started when Fabio Santos came to town pay their respects but say similar things about the over all quality of BJJ.
Of course we have heard very publicly how BJJ is going to shit as well....
So take it as one would take anything with a grain of salt.

[goodlun]

Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits.

Okay I have people that know where I have done Judo in this thread that will 100% back me up on this.
I have done Judo at a Judo school with very good Newaza for a Judo school.
I can confidently say that the average blue belt is going to give a Judo black belt from that school a run for their money.
That school had high standards for Judo Black Belts.
The owner of that Schools Daughter who went to the Olympics two times, studied BJJ to improve on her Newaza and is now a purple belt in BJJ.

The reverse is less true for me, as in I have never been to a BJJ school who is focusing on 50% takedowns I am sure they are out there and I am sure that those takedowns are the mirror image of what I was talking about with the Judo groundwork.

At the high level and this is very generalized I don't think of Judo as throwing and BJJ and ground work.

I think of Judo as teaching Tricks & BJJ teaching Position.

[W. Rabbit]

Yes, but they often fall beautifully, and skillfully.

They always remind me of this scene from Glory.

[W. Rabbit]

You will be extremely hard pressed to find a "BJJ move" that is not in some black and white Judo book picture, somewhere...

Exactly. If anything's really "evolved" about BJJ it's the experimentation that has occurred.

Things like weird guards and stuff are the result of BJJ coloring outside the lines of the Kodokan schema, etc and usually seem spawned from competiton. Was a "worm guard" never used in Judo newaza back in the day? I'm sure somebody did it, it was just never memorialized and given a name until recently.

I think that's the "arrogance" bit, the lack of respect for history. You can see a lot of teens now making BJJ commentary videos about other arts and lambasting them as inferior. Especially if they are Asian...and some of those arts are alive, and even competitive.

They might know what a kimura is, but not who Kimura was. So to them, anything that came before Jits was crap and Jits fixed everything. I know I felt that way in 1993..but what the fuck did I really know? I hadn't even taken a Judo class yet.

[Dr. Gonzo]

The key problem with Aikido is the lack of aliveness, which ends up showing its true colors when sparring against non-Aikidoka.

Yes, but they often fall beautifully, and skillfully.

[W. Rabbit]

We really should have everybody take a CPR and First Aid course before we teach them offensive techniques.

Learning how to fall being neck and neck for being required before we put anybody to grapple on the ground or standing.

And being arguably the most useful self-defense skill we teach...

(Psst...which actually means the Aikido guys are not worthless from a self-defense perspective, after all...)

Ukemi is one place I think young BJJ students should not overlook and probably suffer the "arrogance" issue.

All the focus on competitive groundwork does miss a few key tenets of Judo. Breakfalls are so fundamental and important to practically every Judo session, but I wonder if it's given the same respect outside Judo.

The key problem with Aikido is the lack of aliveness, which ends up showing its true colors when sparring against non-Aikidoka.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits. So much of the curriculum is, for all the name changes, the same in theory. BJJ isn't so far removed from Judo because of physics (my source for that is Kano Jigoro), minus some new trick moves developed in just the last 30 odd years.

That said I agree with Goodun, that at least from a spectator POV, Judo and BJJ are very different in sporting contexts.

As far as arrogance...the circle is now complete. BJJ pajamas. I need to get these.

https://www.jiujitsujammies.com/

You will be extremely hard pressed to find a "BJJ move" that is not in some black and white Judo book picture, somewhere...

[W. Rabbit]

It seems to me most of BJJ is business oriented, so some of his rant may be some sort of marketing. I mean, maybe there is a niche market in BJJ for a more TMA attitude ?

I don't know. Where I was doing BJJ, there seemed to be a fairly humble attitude, and my Judo knowledge was respected. Of course, my ability to perform was limited. I wasn't there to show BJJ how great Judo is anyway. They are complimentary, to say the least.

Complementary, sort of, but not really mutually exclusive, because depending on the school you may get a lot of newaza in Judo and plenty of nagewaza in Jits.

So much of the curriculum is, for all the name changes, the same in theory. BJJ isn't so far removed from Judo because of physics (my source for that is Kano Jigoro), minus some new trick moves developed in just the last 30 odd years that are basically just new applications of very, very old themes.

That said I agree with Goodun, that at least from a spectator POV, Judo and BJJ are very different in sporting contexts.

As far as arrogance...the circle is now complete. BJJ pajamas. I need to get these.

https://www.jiujitsujammies.com/