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Is BJJ "Arrogance" ruining BJJ?

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    Originally posted by Devil View Post
    1. You’re probably right.
    2. You’ve been training for years, right?
    3. Could you have done that one year into training against a stronger, aggressive attacker? Can you say that with confidence?
    4. If you answered yes to #3, you’re probably overconfident. You fight how you train.
    5. If you want to be able to fight, you should focus on fighting. If you’re not focused on fighting, you shouldn’t claim fighting skill.
    6. Sport jiu jitsu is not fighting. It is a skill that is applicable to fighting, like wrestling. There is a difference.
    Let's put it this way I am not so confident that I would let someone pick a fight with me. Even if I knew 100% that they had no training and are physically less fit.
    I am confident that I would do much better in that situation with the training I have vs not having the training (no duh sort of thing).
    Since I have gone a good 40 years of only being in fights I want to be in I am not overly concerned about it.
    It's nice to know that I stand a better chance but as said before I am a little overweight 40 year old getting out of the house and having some fun.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

    Comment


      Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
      Did you mean to say "yoking"?
      I throw eggs to start fights.
      The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

      Comment


        Originally posted by goodlun View Post
        Let's put it this way I am not so confident that I would let someone pick a fight with me. Even if I knew 100% that they had no training and are physically less fit.
        I am confident that I would do much better in that situation with the training I have vs not having the training (no duh sort of thing).
        Since I have gone a good 40 years of only being in fights I want to be in I am not overly concerned about it.
        It's nice to know that I stand a better chance but as said before I am a little overweight 40 year old getting out of the house and having some fun.
        I’m not criticizing you. I’m just making a point about the value of focusing on self defense as a beginner.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Devil View Post
          I’m not criticizing you. I’m just making a point about the value of focusing on self defense as a beginner.
          I didn't take it as such, I am just being as realistic and honest as I can be.
          Though I think grappling fundamentals first, then work on specific self defense tricks.
          Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
          –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

          Comment


            Originally posted by goodlun View Post
            I didn't take it as such, I am just being as realistic and honest as I can be.
            Though I think grappling fundamentals first, then work on specific self defense tricks.
            That's the beauty of it, self defense basics are grappling basics. Always control the inside Space. Protect your neck and Chin. Stay too close or too far to hit.
            The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

            Comment


              So this is a fair example of what a blue belt is expected to be able to do in the Harris linage with some variation based on instructor.
              http://www.modernselfdefense.com/chris/blue.pdf
              Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
              –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

              Comment


                Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                So this is a fair example of what a blue belt is expected to be able to do in the Harris linage with some variation based on instructor.
                http://www.modernselfdefense.com/chris/blue.pdf
                That includes a lot more self defense in a formalized training plan than you will ever see with lots of jiu jitsu schools.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Devil View Post
                  That includes a lot more self defense in a formalized training plan than you will ever see with lots of jiu jitsu schools.
                  It's also not a "sport" school, people are encouraged to compete if they want, though usually in non-IBJJF settings. Your not likely to see a professional competitor come out of one of these schools. Though it's far from impossible. It just doesn't seem to be the focus.
                  One of the Black Belts I trained under was a Harris black belt but moved over to under Cobraheina when he wanted to become more competition focused.
                  Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                  –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                    Sirc's vagina has been on display here for far too long. Decades.
                    Fixed.

                    Comment


                      I think my point is? If a self defense focused school can survive in a very saturated market with world championships all around it...... Their is no need for this arrogance drama that is likely money motivated.......
                      Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                      –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                        I think my point is? If a self defense focused school can survive in a very saturated market with world championships all around it...... Their is no need for this arrogance drama that is likely money motivated.......
                        Put another way, people have the right to practice the way they want. And that's a good thing. BJJ is diverse, and the best part of that is seen when the "I do jits for fun", "I do jits for medals", and "I do jits for the street" crews meet up and hug it out, with much much pummeling.

                        But this is the same with all arts, imho. There's a continuum of excellence, and a continuum of arrogance, and the best parts don't necessarily overlap. Judo has it, Jujutsu has it, CMA has it, TKD, Karate have it...it's definitely a BJJ problem, but not just a BJJ problem. It has the ability to infect any art, martial or otherwise. It's a respect for other people problem. And that goes for all arts. CMA people need to respect BJJ people and vice versa...within reason, obviously. I personally find it very, very hard to respect some Wing Chun people. Some, not all.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                          To be fair most "sports only" BJJ guys are going to fuck up most people in a "self defense" situation. By "Self Defense" I mean the dumb fights you see people get in over dumb stuff. Not the in the mugging sort of "self defense".
                          I mean straight up not trolling way they will keep an untrained person off balance enough that they won't be able to through effective strikes even if they dive for something like deep half
                          This is true. Even an untrained athlete has better odds than an untrained person in a one on one scenario, but self-defence can cover that mugging scenario, or tough street kids, crazy people, or in my case when gypsies try to storm your local bar.

                          I guess while we're at it I'll just share this, so someone can learn from my fuck up. It reminds me of that old Jocko Willink video on martial arts (that was covered on here) before his podcast. In it he said something like, "when will you be attacked, today, tomorrow, three years, how ready can you be?" Well in our academy we start off each class with a self defence technique. There's an A class and a B class during the week, so you get two scenarios each week. Over here a lot of businesses take of two weeks from Christmas holiday, and Friday everyone finishes work for break is called "Black eye Friday" because everyone goes out and celebrates finally being off work, people are out for their Christmas parties, you have the once a year drinkers out because there's a reason why they don't normally drink, etc, so things happen. All month my Professor brought this up, preaching situational awareness. "If I'm having a beer in my house I can relax. It's 'silly season' so if you're out in town look who's around you, getting close to you, crossing the street, yadada." And we move on to the techniques, closing or creating distance to deal with threats, dealing with strikes, not going to the ground, what to do if you're tripped or dragged to the ground, dealing with strikes, not getting hit, getting to your feet, all basic stuff. I've even learnt this elsewhere, and in other martial arts.

                          Well last Friday, the day after Boxing Day, I was bumrushed by a group of gypos. They've been put out of the four towns leading to this one for violence and anti-social behaviour, and they haven't been around here in years. Apparently they had their caravan parked while they were drinking in the only bar they're allowed to, and heard the alarm on it going off, and decided to go apeshit. I walked out of our door after hearing some shouting and just saw a group charging me.....now before I get into it. I've been in street fights before. I compete in MMA. I've KOd people with my hands and feet(or shin). I'm a BJJ competitor. I'm a 4 striped Purple belt who in my last 3 comps got 2 golds and a bronze, didn't even train for the bronze one, and injured, so even though I train self-defence, I do compete. I have the confidence that if I'm in a street scenario(I have been in the past, including 2 attempted muggings) I can handle myself. The town I live in is a small one where everyone knows everyone. Usually at work I'm throwing out drunk rugby guys who I'm normally friendly with, and we'll have a beer next I see them and laugh about it, so I never feel at threat here. It's a small tight knit community.

                          Well this was the first time I've been attacked by these odds, a scenario I never thought I'd be in because I'd probably see it coming and either get out of it, or not let it get that far. But no, there's a group of strangers that grew up bareknuckle boxing charging me, and I fucked up what I was taught, and teach. Just gut reaction I doubled legged the first one that went for me. We always teach never to go to the ground, or go passed knee on belly for self defence. Out of habbit(we're currently training for a comp), and went into mount, and that split second where I was about to jump into knee on belly I had a mop shaft broken over me, and start eating steel toed boots to the face and head. After a brief moment of getting river danced on in the turtle, I remembered to cover up and get to my feet. The last place I felt a thud, I knee someone was on one leg and went for a single to both get him off me, and get to my feet, then it just felt like a mosh pit. I was just push kicking, threw a few strikes(have busted knuckled that were sore hitting pads last night with), eating a few back,and pushing until finally a girl(who got punched by one of them) said the cops were coming. One of the scum bags even tried taking a selfie with me before they ran back and high tailed in the caravan.

                          So I let my guard down. I should've noticed the caravan, and been on guard going outside. There's no way in hell I was going to not get jumped, but If I wouldn't have gone into mount (I'll have to swallow my pride and say that could also have been the mistake of over confidence) I would've been on my feet longer, and wouldn't have ate those shots. When I did create distance, I should've run. While this was going on, no one ran to my aid, they instead shut and locked the doors in fear, and a part of me didn't want to leave anyone else with those animals. Better me than anyone else. The view from the cameras showed 4 of them on me. The girl that got punched said there were more present. Had that mop shaft have been a baseball bat, or if one had a bottle or sharp object, I could be in the hospital right now, or exiting this earth. Luckily I made it out with a nasty shiner, or normal bums and bruises. The next day just felt like an MMA loss, but the phone calls I was getting from people that heard reminded me I'm lucky that's all it was, and this shit is never happening again. One fortunate thing though, is it was me, and even though I slipped in an impossible situation, I'd like to see someone who wasn't taught these concepts try to berimbola their way out of that

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Ulsteryank View Post
                            This is true. Even an untrained athlete has better odds than an untrained person in a one on one scenario, but self-defence can cover that mugging scenario, or tough street kids, crazy people, or in my case when gypsies try to storm your local bar.

                            I guess while we're at it I'll just share this, so someone can learn from my fuck up. It reminds me of that old Jocko Willink video on martial arts (that was covered on here) before his podcast. In it he said something like, "when will you be attacked, today, tomorrow, three years, how ready can you be?" Well in our academy we start off each class with a self defence technique. There's an A class and a B class during the week, so you get two scenarios each week. Over here a lot of businesses take of two weeks from Christmas holiday, and Friday everyone finishes work for break is called "Black eye Friday" because everyone goes out and celebrates finally being off work, people are out for their Christmas parties, you have the once a year drinkers out because there's a reason why they don't normally drink, etc, so things happen. All month my Professor brought this up, preaching situational awareness. "If I'm having a beer in my house I can relax. It's 'silly season' so if you're out in town look who's around you, getting close to you, crossing the street, yadada." And we move on to the techniques, closing or creating distance to deal with threats, dealing with strikes, not going to the ground, what to do if you're tripped or dragged to the ground, dealing with strikes, not getting hit, getting to your feet, all basic stuff. I've even learnt this elsewhere, and in other martial arts.

                            Well last Friday, the day after Boxing Day, I was bumrushed by a group of gypos. They've been put out of the four towns leading to this one for violence and anti-social behaviour, and they haven't been around here in years. Apparently they had their caravan parked while they were drinking in the only bar they're allowed to, and heard the alarm on it going off, and decided to go apeshit. I walked out of our door after hearing some shouting and just saw a group charging me.....now before I get into it. I've been in street fights before. I compete in MMA. I've KOd people with my hands and feet(or shin). I'm a BJJ competitor. I'm a 4 striped Purple belt who in my last 3 comps got 2 golds and a bronze, didn't even train for the bronze one, and injured, so even though I train self-defence, I do compete. I have the confidence that if I'm in a street scenario(I have been in the past, including 2 attempted muggings) I can handle myself. The town I live in is a small one where everyone knows everyone. Usually at work I'm throwing out drunk rugby guys who I'm normally friendly with, and we'll have a beer next I see them and laugh about it, so I never feel at threat here. It's a small tight knit community.

                            Well this was the first time I've been attacked by these odds, a scenario I never thought I'd be in because I'd probably see it coming and either get out of it, or not let it get that far. But no, there's a group of strangers that grew up bareknuckle boxing charging me, and I fucked up what I was taught, and teach. Just gut reaction I doubled legged the first one that went for me. We always teach never to go to the ground, or go passed knee on belly for self defence. Out of habbit(we're currently training for a comp), and went into mount, and that split second where I was about to jump into knee on belly I had a mop shaft broken over me, and start eating steel toed boots to the face and head. After a brief moment of getting river danced on in the turtle, I remembered to cover up and get to my feet. The last place I felt a thud, I knee someone was on one leg and went for a single to both get him off me, and get to my feet, then it just felt like a mosh pit. I was just push kicking, threw a few strikes(have busted knuckled that were sore hitting pads last night with), eating a few back,and pushing until finally a girl(who got punched by one of them) said the cops were coming. One of the scum bags even tried taking a selfie with me before they ran back and high tailed in the caravan.

                            So I let my guard down. I should've noticed the caravan, and been on guard going outside. There's no way in hell I was going to not get jumped, but If I wouldn't have gone into mount (I'll have to swallow my pride and say that could also have been the mistake of over confidence) I would've been on my feet longer, and wouldn't have ate those shots. When I did create distance, I should've run. While this was going on, no one ran to my aid, they instead shut and locked the doors in fear, and a part of me didn't want to leave anyone else with those animals. Better me than anyone else. The view from the cameras showed 4 of them on me. The girl that got punched said there were more present. Had that mop shaft have been a baseball bat, or if one had a bottle or sharp object, I could be in the hospital right now, or exiting this earth. Luckily I made it out with a nasty shiner, or normal bums and bruises. The next day just felt like an MMA loss, but the phone calls I was getting from people that heard reminded me I'm lucky that's all it was, and this shit is never happening again. One fortunate thing though, is it was me, and even though I slipped in an impossible situation, I'd like to see someone who wasn't taught these concepts try to berimbola their way out of that
                            I've gotten my ass royally kicked on a number of occasions.

                            It happens.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Ulsteryank View Post
                              I remembered to cover up and get to my feet.
                              That was a great anecdote.. For what it's worth, from everything I was ever taught in BJJ, this is the supreme position.

                              Ireland sounds like a rough place. We don't have roaming caravans of gypsy gangs in America.

                              Our gangs stay kind of stationary. That's where the term "homey" comes from. South Central, LA.

                              Comment


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                                Just in case anyone thinks I'm bullshitting lol, here's me last Friday after it happened, and here's me this Friday past healed up and back at work. After a good salt bath and some arnica they eye was already opening the next day, and the scrapes were mostly gone the day after.

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