The Top 5 Combat Systems

[goodlun]

I get all that and as far as having to consume mass quantities to train, yeah I am that guy and probably always will be. My body just goes hibernatory with less than 3kcals per day.

But I still don't see how it's physically possible to burn 500 kcal in just 5 minutes, or 100 in 1. The only way to accomplish that would be (using Tim's math) if someone weighed 1,000 lbs, in which case 4.8 cals per pound per hour of intense BJJ would mean an 80 Calorie per minute burn over the course of 60m (4,800 kcals).

So I have to call bullshit on the 100 Calorie/min comp burn, without more solid reasoning. It doesn't add up. Based on Tim's own math, an intense 5m of BJJ comp shouldnt even break 50 per minute for an average person (150-200lbs).

For comparison, 100 kcal burns (avg) would typically require 10m on a treadmill or stair climb at a reasonable pace, maybe 5m on an elliptical, 7m of jump rope, etc. Being able to fit all that energy burn into a single minute of even the most intense wrestling just seem possible.

I propose that its not so much that you burn 100 Calorie/min is not likely correct in the scheme of actually burning those 100/calories in that min, but it could raise the Basal Metabolic Rate as a result of a very heavy an immediate calorie deficit. Especially given the whole ATP cycle.

[W. Rabbit]

I get all that and as far as having to consume mass quantities to train, yeah I am that guy and probably always will be. My body just goes hibernatory with less than 3kcals per day.

But I still don't see how it's physically possible to burn 500 kcal in just 5 minutes, or 100 in 1. The only way to accomplish that would be (using Tim's math) if someone weighed 1,000 lbs, in which case 4.8 cals per pound per hour of intense BJJ would mean an 80 Calorie per minute burn over the course of 60m (4,800 kcals).

So I have to call bullshit on the 100 Calorie/min comp burn, without more solid reasoning. It doesn't add up. Based on Tim's own math, an intense 5m of BJJ comp shouldnt even break 50 per minute for an average person (150-200lbs).

For comparison, 100 kcal burns (avg) would typically require 10m on a treadmill or stair climb at a reasonable pace, maybe 5m on an elliptical, 7m of jump rope, etc. Being able to fit all that energy burn into a single minute of even the most intense wrestling just seem possible.

[Michael Tzadok]

That's got to be mostly water weight. I can drop 10 lbs over a 2 hour run.

Dropping a pound or 2 over 3 days I dunno. I do know that I was eating 4000+ kcal dinners in addition to breakfast and lunch and my weight was dropping on the scale when I wanted it to stay up.

[NeilG]

I was wrestling 4-5 matches per day. By day three I was pounding water to make minimum weight for the weight class I was wrestling(188 was the lowest I was allowed to be). In other words, despite eating like a hog each night, I would still be losing weight, and that mostly due to the calories being burned off in competition.

That's got to be mostly water weight. I can drop 10 lbs over a 2 hour run.

[Michael Tzadok]

FWIW, just to change the stupid subject for a moment to discuss something that's actually interesting.

I think you posted this before and I know we discussed the jits kilocal burn rate a while back, I think the numbers from various sources ran from 800 to 1000+ per hour.

I actually had a chance to test this with an instrument recently (this bad boy https://www.johnsonfitness.com/Octan...iABEgIgovD_BwE)

This thing has an "MMA" 30:30 mode that simulates (HIIT style) 30 seconds of high resistance with 30 seconds of recovery to simulate grappling sprints. So I played with different difficulty levels to see how the kcal burn over 10m reps changed. Sure enough it ranged from 10/minute (light), to 20/min (60+ rpm sprints), which is 600-1200 for 60m, for my specific weight.

Obviously the elliptical is only simulating the resistance and gross motor etc but those numbers from the machine line up nicely with Tim's chart/calculus EXCEPT for the competition estimates (which makes sense those are so widely variable). I have yet to find a more accurate way of testing the BJJ kcal burn, but 300-500 kcals in a 5m sprint still seems a bit high.

So....is there really such a thing as a 100 Calorie Minute? Is that physically possible without being massive? That's the only way Tim's math seems to account for such a high rate.

It isn't just about size, it is about stress, adrenaline, resistance and a bunch of other things that you don't run into anywhere outside of competition or(on an admittedly much greater scale) combat. I don't know about BJJ specifically, as far as competition calorie burns(though I'm given to trust his numbers based on some of the things I've seen with my club's competition team), however the wrestling numbers seem accurate to me. At my wrestling prime I was a 190lb lean pounds(more than one doc with calipers said I couldn't healthily get down to 185). Over the course of a couple three day tournaments I would have a normal healthy breakfast(2 soft boiled eggs, 2 pieces of toast and a bowl of Quaker oatmeal, strawberries and cream please), a 12 inch hoagie and bag of chips for lunch, then for dinner a baked spaghetti(I think intended for 2) a liter of gatorade 4 tastycake eclairs and two chocolate juniors(as a Jersey boy you'll know what I'm talking about).

I was wrestling 4-5 matches per day. By day three I was pounding water to make minimum weight for the weight class I was wrestling(188 was the lowest I was allowed to be). In other words, despite eating like a hog each night, I would still be losing weight, and that mostly due to the calories being burned off in competition.

[BKR]

I think both Tim's research and others indicate that the per-minute burn in all-out competition is both highly subjective, and very difficult to measure. They back into that number based on whatever models they are using. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying "here's some research that was done." And, colored with personal experience, when I was training 5-6 days a week for 2-3 hours a day, I was taking in 3000+ Calories daily, at my slight size of 150-ish.

Apropos: https://qz.com/753956/how-olympic-sw...ities-of-food/

Back when I was competing at Judo, and training multiple times per week (including cardio and weights), I was burning up to 3500 calories/day. At a body weight of 145.

My calorie intake to cut weight was 2800-3000. I know this because I weighed/measured and tracked everything I ate, and compared to my rate of weight loss.

Anyway, cool story, bro, amirite ?

Here is an article with common forms of exercise ranked according to calorie burn for a 200 lb man.
https://www.iflscience.com/health-an...ur-ranked/all/

[submessenger]

FWIW, just to change the stupid subject for a moment to discuss something that's actually interesting.

I think you posted this before and I know we discussed the jits kilocal burn rate a while back, I think the numbers from various sources ran from 800 to 1000+ per hour.

I actually had a chance to test this with an instrument recently (this bad boy https://www.johnsonfitness.com/Octan...iABEgIgovD_BwE)

This thing has an "MMA" 30:30 mode that simulates (HIIT style) 30 seconds of high resistance with 30 seconds of recovery to simulate grappling sprints. So I played with different difficulty levels to see how the kcal burn over 10m reps changed. Sure enough it ranged from 10/minute (light), to 20/min (60+ rpm sprints), which is 600-1200 for 60m, for my specific weight.

Obviously the elliptical is only simulating the resistance and gross motor etc but those numbers from the machine line up nicely with Tim's chart/calculus EXCEPT for the competition estimates (which makes sense those are so widely variable). I have yet to find a more accurate way of testing the BJJ kcal burn, but 300-500 kcals in a 5m sprint still seems a bit high.

So....is there really such a thing as a 100 Calorie Minute? Is that physically possible without being massive? That's the only way Tim's math seems to account for such a high rate.

I think both Tim's research and others indicate that the per-minute burn in all-out competition is both highly subjective, and very difficult to measure. They back into that number based on whatever models they are using. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying "here's some research that was done." And, colored with personal experience, when I was training 5-6 days a week for 2-3 hours a day, I was taking in 3000+ Calories daily, at my slight size of 150-ish.

Apropos: https://qz.com/753956/how-olympic-sw...ities-of-food/

[W. Rabbit]

Been there, done that. Cardio for BJJ/grappling/wrestling is a wholly different beast, especially if you're a noob. You spend a lot of time in positions where your body is not optimal at breathing or pumping blood, and then you add in the spaz factor... you see a lot of puking and/or passing out with white belts.

Somewhat related, one of my former professors did some sciency stuff on caloric burn, a while back:
http://timbrucejiujitsu.blogspot.com...rn-in-bjj.html

FWIW, just to change the stupid subject for a moment to discuss something that's actually interesting.

I think you posted this before and I know we discussed the jits kilocal burn rate a while back, I think the numbers from various sources ran from 800 to 1000+ per hour.

I actually had a chance to test this with an instrument recently (this bad boy https://www.johnsonfitness.com/Octan...iABEgIgovD_BwE)

This thing has an "MMA" 30:30 mode that simulates (HIIT style) 30 seconds of high resistance with 30 seconds of recovery to simulate grappling sprints. So I played with different difficulty levels to see how the kcal burn over 10m reps changed. Sure enough it ranged from 10/minute (light), to 20/min (60+ rpm sprints), which is 600-1200 for 60m, for my specific weight.

Obviously the elliptical is only simulating the resistance and gross motor etc but those numbers from the machine line up nicely with Tim's chart/calculus EXCEPT for the competition estimates (which makes sense those are so widely variable). I have yet to find a more accurate way of testing the BJJ kcal burn, but 300-500 kcals in a 5m sprint still seems a bit high.

So....is there really such a thing as a 100 Calorie Minute? Is that physically possible without being massive? That's the only way Tim's math seems to account for such a high rate.

[goodlun]

The value I find in it, is if someone a bit more open minded comes along from google get to gleam a little more information.
Also its just fun to troll these idiots....

[Sovvolf]

Indeed. Same for ducking too low without keeping my guard up right into a knee in the face, shooting too early and eating a shin or even those first time reactions to getting leather thrown at you, looking away only to put your face right into the fellows well timed hook. Some lessons are only learnt through pain. It's not something you can get from watching Eddie Bravo YouTube interviews.

Has he ever said precisely where he got these amazing sprawl skills. I mean there are double legs and there are double legs.

Likewise a lot of people tend to think of sprawls as simple up-downs as opposed to highly technical techniques.

Couldn't tell you Mike any attempt to get any accreditation from the fellow nets you an "I'm not telling you in case they beat me up" probably because he spend most his time talking shit about his sparring partners.

[Michael Tzadok]

Has he ever said precisely where he got these amazing sprawl skills. I mean there are double legs and there are double legs.

Likewise a lot of people tend to think of sprawls as simple up-downs as opposed to highly technical techniques.

[jnp]

I did make the offer last year (Or was it the year before) if he'd like to meet up if even for a hard bout of sparring. I even offered to fly across there as it wouldn't be too expensive and even if I got there and found him hiding inside his mum's wardrobe I could still probably enjoy a long weekend away with my wife. Though alas it turn into me being some sort of macho bully arsehole for daring to make a friendly live test of ability.

Though I think the reason behind a lot of the arguing at least from my end is that I wouldn't want some one coming on to this site where we're pretty reputable for being about practical martial advice and cutting through the bullshit. Only to see this kind of lunacy unchallenged.

[Sovvolf]

Arguing with “martial theorists” who have next to no practical experience is a complete waste of bandwidth.

This guy needs to step into the mat or into a ring, and face a game opponent before he can understand what those of us with practical experience already know.

Until he does that, he’s just wasting our time.

I did make the offer last year (Or was it the year before) if he'd like to meet up if even for a hard bout of sparring. I even offered to fly across there as it wouldn't be too expensive and even if I got there and found him hiding inside his mum's wardrobe I could still probably enjoy a long weekend away with my wife. Though alas it turn into me being some sort of macho bully arsehole for daring to make a friendly live test of ability.

Though I think the reason behind a lot of the arguing at least from my end is that I wouldn't want some one coming on to this site where we're pretty reputable for being about practical martial advice and cutting through the bullshit. Only to see this kind of lunacy unchallenged.

[jnp]

[goodlun]

Prove it. Show us you sprawl.

I mean, I can sprawl with a high success rate on someone if say we are doing a sprawling drill(so some aliveness).
However we start talking randori and that success rate for sprawling goes way down, I mean WAY down, sure it still happens but man is it so much harder(I know that you know this).
Point is even if he could produce a dead pattern video of him sprawling it doesn't prove much if he isn't actually trying to launch an offense of his own and he knows what his partner is going to do.
Yet even then I would bet good money that his sprawls look freaking terrible!