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Machida Karate apparently not a fluke

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    #61
    Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    Its pretty hard to find an undelousional American striker without some heavy boxing influence. Even if its just by proxy they will pick things up from film and just watching boxing matches
    . If youre allowed to punch the face its pretty smart to have a guard like a boxer.... or you get KOed in boxing range. Like machida has been clipped in almost all of his stoppage losses.
    But I think you will evolve towards that stance after a lot of face punching live rounds.
    Machida was sporting just about the best strike defense of any MMA fighter for a long time. He does however have a somewhat glass jaw and tends to get frantic when he gets struck. I don't think a boxing guard would have helped him.

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      #62
      Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
      Machida was sporting just about the best strike defense of any MMA fighter for a long time. He does however have a somewhat glass jaw and tends to get frantic when he gets struck. I don't think a boxing guard would have helped him.
      Indeed his paint the fence was great but his wax on wax off was certainly lacking somewhat.

      Of course by the time he reached the floor he was in no condition to sand it .
      King without a crown

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        #63
        After thinking about this for a while, I've decided to state the obvious.
        Machida, Thompson, some of the other fighters posted in video links in this thread and a whole host of other great fighters like Pettis and Ferguson, and hell, going way back, Keith Hackney. Represent the proof of what Omega and devil had to say about training methodology and style.

        Plus a lot of those fighters are really entertaining to watch.

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          #64
          Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
          Machida was sporting just about the best strike defense of any MMA fighter for a long time. He does however have a somewhat glass jaw and tends to get frantic when he gets struck. I don't think a boxing guard would have helped him.
          He has the reflexes and in and out movement of a panther. He's one of my favorite fighters still.

          However.....When he's in phone booth range he still has his hands down. See Shogun Ko and Jones KO/Sub for reference.
          I dont know that he could use his style as effectively or in the same fashion with a classic western boxing guard like Romero or Henderson but it is a definately a chink in his armour there. I like to see a high defensive guard when standing toe to toe. He has his hands at his chest in those instances.
          The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

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            #65
            Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
            He has the reflexes and in and out movement of a panther. He's one of my favorite fighters still.

            However.....When he's in phone booth range he still has his hands down. See Shogun Ko and Jones KO/Sub for reference.
            I dont know that he could use his style as effectively or in the same fashion with a classic western boxing guard like Romero or Henderson but it is a definately a chink in his armour there. I like to see a high defensive guard when standing toe to toe. He has his hands at his chest in those instances.
            Agree

            I favor proper Boxing guard at Boxing range that can cover head or body as needed with conventional Boxing technique.

            I do concede there are kickers who can do tremendous damage with kicks at kicking range with the not-Boxing-orthodox guard (hands low).

            Caveat: Roy Jones, Jr show boated as a Champion Boxer with low guard and got away with it until he slowed down as he got older. Freak of nature...
            Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 2/03/2019 4:38pm, .

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              #66
              Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post

              Caveat: Roy Jones, Jr show boated as a Champion Boxer with low guard and got away with it until he slowed down as he got older. Freak of nature...
              I contend thats why machida quit getting away with it as well. One day you wake up and you're neuromuscular connections are just a tick slower and that's that. Ironically that happening likely will lead to a striker getting a concussion, which will make them slower still. I believe they did well despite that stance at that range, certainly not because of it.
              All that being said a slowed Machida has the speed of a panther. Prime Machida was a cheetah. He literally wouldn't get hit in 15 mins of fighting Champs and top 10 guys. Slowed machida is easily one 10 best in the world at LHW or Middle.
              Jones was the same way.
              The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

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                #67
                Except early-days machida looked like he was doing karate while fighting full contact. The interesting thing about karate succeeding in mma isn't that something which is semantically karate but effectively mma succeeds. That is neither surprising nor innovative. What's interesting is when something technically distinct contributes a unique skillset to the sport. If it can be pulled off consistently, that's all the more interesting (until it becomes incorporated into the new normal).

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by ksennin View Post
                  I spent a long time during my karate training agonizing over why I could never make such a fundamental block as yoko uke work in sparring, whether point-tag or continuous one. Somewhat related moves did work, being looser and quicker, or more like cover-up moves. I kept thinking I was just too slow and clumsy. Then I noticed NO ONE really used it effectively in sparring. It was always one of the less stiff variants. So why did we have that damn block in nearly every combo and kata? I currently believe the damn thing is not really a block at all but just a twisting wrist-grab release, which fits better into the way it is done in the kata, too, and that years of useless shitty training was the consequence of shitty legacy training after people copying old forms and having no idea of what the hell they were doing because they never actually fought and just received the badly explained theorical model, which in my opinion, is what happens with most of such TMAs.

                  I have tried to discuss such a thing with instructors, to see if we could stop kids being frustrated by endless two-man drills of trying to learn that shitty move as a block, but they refuse to even consider it, because they identify that usage, as most others, as too intrinsic to the greater "tradition" of karate.


                  F*ck that. I did not really learn to fight until I began to get regularly beaten up by a CMA teacher who loved more realistic sparring and had to drop all the stuff that did not work or was not really being used as they could or should.

                  But I still consider what I do to be karate. It is just my interpretation of karate.
                  Bad transmission has been one of the main problems in TMAs being in the shape they are today. That being said, if you get a good teacher and good training you will see many of the methods emplyed in training, done in good and authentic TMA school do not differ so much of what we consider now modern training. Many of the methods where misunderstood or not properly done, therefore they where discarded, same as with the techniques, when someone gets a piece of the set but doesnt know what it is for , it is thrown away.

                  Specially the chudan or middle blocks are widely misunderstood and trained incorrectly, even named incorrectly as blocks if you think about it. You should be able to use it in a fight or sparring, if you cant pull it off, it is probably a mistake in the training and transmission from the part of the teacher. Most karate schools do these improperly so what you are saying is mostly true.
                  All two person drills should be like two person drills in boxing...whe you and your partner pair up in boxing or Muay or whatever and do some combo training, it should be the same when you pair up in Karate. But people get many things wrong, and Japanese Karate has a lot of responsibility in that...specially the hikite or hand in the waist
                  Last edited by ccamara; 2/07/2019 11:27am, .

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by ccamara View Post
                    Bad transmission has been one of the main problems in TMAs being in the shape they are today. That being said, if you get a good teacher and good training you will see many of the methods emplyed in training, done in good and authentic TMA school do not differ so much of what we consider now modern training. Many of the methods where misunderstood or not properly done, therefore they where discarded, same as with the techniques, when someone gets a piece of the set but doesnt know what it is for , it is thrown away.

                    Specially the chudan or middle blocks are widely misunderstood and trained incorrectly, even named incorrectly as blocks if you think about it. You should be able to use it in a fight or sparring, if you cant pull it off, it is probably a mistake in the training and transmission from the part of the teacher. Most karate schools do these improperly so what you are saying is mostly true.
                    All two person drills should be like two person drills in boxing...whe you and your partner pair up in boxing or Muay or whatever and do some combo training, it should be the same when you pair up in Karate. But people get many things wrong, and Japanese Karate has a lot of responsibility in that...specially the hikite or hand in the waist

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                      To bring it back to Machida karate, when those guys fight they use stances, footwork and hand techniques that very much resemble traditional karate.
                      Are those nearly exclusive linear side stances, constant switches, evasive in-out footwork and unorthodox striking combinations really traditional karate though?

                      The Machida family come from a JKA/Shotokan lineage, which although old, is heavily influenced in modern terms by the culture of sport point-Karate. The same sport point-karate that everyone today laughs at, is trained with resisting partners and cross trained with Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ and unsurprisingly becomes effective (same as we are seeing with some TKD fighters). I get what you're saying, you do see some pretty traditional stuff adapted for the cage by the Machida family especially with some reworking of the 'uke' and chambered counters etc (which is great), but Kudo is arguably just as traditional.

                      Kudo is heavily influenced by Kyokushin (the principle art the founder studied alongside Judo), and Kyokushin does honestly look a bit more like Muay Thai, yet is still traditional 'karate'. The sparring of Kyokushin that has been there since the beginning matched with the sparring of Judo which has also existed since its begging, and you have a great martial art, despite both of the principle martial arts being considered 'traditional'. I understand why someone would see Kudo as not traditional in that aspect though, but due to popular culture I think many would mistake knockdown rules Karate as modern as well (I train Muay Thai and I feel at home sparring with Kyokushin guys, but not Shotokan guys).

                      Despite all of this, I find the distinction of Kudo as 'modern' and Japanese Karate and Judo as 'traditional' as a bit strange, Japanese Karate and Judo are both pretty modern martial arts comparatively, despite some of their fluff.

                      Edit:

                      I haven't practiced Karate at any dojo, but I have studied those Machida Karate-Do Mixed Martial Arts Techniques DVDs.

                      If the style of Karate taught in those DVDs is similar to anything they teach in a sparring class at their academy currently, their Karate definitely not 'traditional'. Some cross training is included, and there is a emphasis on modern striking forms. Awesome DVDs, highly recommended to those intrigued by their style. They are quite old but the production value really does hold up.
                      Last edited by soyboy; 3/29/2019 12:41pm, .

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