Aikido and Ninjutsu rocks!

[BJMills]

You got me wrong fam, I don't find the physical benefits pathetic.. I find the action of trying to get on your good side with this pathetic, i.e not sucking up, because I intend to hold my ground
vulgarity, brutality don't equal to effectiveness, all actions that we master we feel comfortable and relaxed doing, unlike the cool vision of tension and losing yourself in the pumping adrenaline to spill blood we all have, we're in a paradox

[BKR]

You got me wrong fam, I don't find the physical benefits pathetic.. I find the action of trying to get on your good side with this pathetic, i.e not sucking up, because I intend to hold my ground
vulgarity, brutality don't equal to effectiveness, all actions that we master we feel comfortable and relaxed doing, unlike the cool vision of tension and losing yourself in the pumping adrenaline to spill blood we all have, we're in a paradox

Why do you think vulgarity and brutality equals tension, adrenaline, etc?

[BackFistMonkey]

Why do you think vulgarity and brutality equals tension, adrenaline, etc?

I used to find this wonderful relaxed nothingness when I was brutalizing someone and whispering vulgarities about their mothers and uncles in the clinch or rear mount.

[BKR]

I used to find this wonderful relaxed nothingness when I was brutalizing someone and whispering vulgarities about their mothers and uncles in the clinch or rear mount.

Thanks for sharing!

[Guird]

1:11 is an interesting bit of Kadochnikov history. I've said this elsewhere on the forums but I'll repeat it again. So the Kadochnikov Group(that's what they were called) were a bunch of researchers, Mathematicians, Engineers, Physicists, Psychologists and Martial Artists. They started as a blue sky project. Could a man really do back flips over speeding cars while accurately returning fire with a full auto weapon like in American movies... Don't know but they were going to find out(turns out not without a very specialized program and a few well concealed trampolines and preset targets that don't vary in location or distance). So in that they saw mentalists that could seemingly put people to sleep with very light touches and even no touches at all. Not psychic energy or chi(the former because they could find no evidence of it and the latter because scientific atheism). They understood that they were seeing a psychological phenomenon not supernatural one, but they wanted to test to see if it could be weaponized(short answer is that it couldn't).

However, that didn't stop them from putting on demonstrations then and now about how easy it is to get a willing group of people to do crazy stuff, even if they are skeptics to start. In longer courses it was, and I believe still is part of the training, though I never learned how to do the puppet string thing, I did learn how to convince a group of people to fall to "throws" that on the grounds of physics should never work, and then point out to them that they were beaten by their own minds, and try to condition them against such things. For it to work on the willing is easy, for it to work on skeptics that is where we really start getting into sport psychology and whether you are losing a fight because that is what you are supposed to do. So 1:11 if I'm not mistaken is one of their demonstrations about just how far down that rabbit hole you can go. If you go to one of their 10week camps, you are being instructed for like 12 hours per day. You really can't physically perform all of that time, so they take you on some really crazy and interesting intellectual rides, and some of it goes ad absurdum. Arguably this may be one of those things, though the lessons learned their have made me a much less compliant partner, and also to recognize when my training partners and students are being compliant. In short it made me a better training partner and coach which is the point of one of those 10week camps.

As far as the sparring thing. Yes I am quite sure, he writes exactly that in all of his manuals about how they are not Martial Artists of Sportsmen.

Ah, cool, that is a really handy thing to show people. Thanks!

[Bneterasedmynam]

You had me until you mentioned affliction shirts. I would almost* take magic pants over affliction.








*well maybe not, but affliction is still for asshats.

[BJMills]

You had me until you mentioned affliction shirts. I would almost* take magic pants over affliction.








*well maybe not, but affliction is still for asshats.

[BKR]

I think part of the problem with trying to discuss something from videos is that you only see the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Michael has actually trained in the Russian stuff, extensively. So when he writes about it, I read carefully.

Even so, the videos posted can't possibly show stuff in it's entirety, and context is pretty much lacking.

There are all sorts of stuff that gets called out for being BS, out of context. You could video parts of some of the Judo classes I used to run, especially ones that focused on correcting problematic, ingrained habit, or ones trying to indoctrinate correct habits/movements in mostly untrained people, and think "Wow, Judo sucks, it's compliant, where is the sparring/randori, etc.

So let's take for example, you have a bunch of young, strong guys who are regular army soldiers, and want to up their level of training. They are gung-ho, and maybe even had to compete to get into the special training program (special forces, whatever). Very fit, but perhaps not particularly refined or efficient in their physicality, largely unskilled in anything but the crudest sort of H2H and combined weapons handling, or maybe some wrestled or did some sort of alive, combat sport (Judo, Sambo, etc.).

Anyway, what sort of program would you run to take them to the next level, so to speak ?

[Filipmania]

Michael Tzadok
Does training have to get to the point where people are beaten bloody and hospitalized? more often than not it's a free for all format or one on one than all on one tho
While I did personally get hit in the face multiple times and bleed we don't aim for hurting our opponents but stopping them, that being said we do actually sign a contract that this may happen and that we're ok with it
training hurts, we get hit and we're not taught to desperately block everything, I don't see why you're implying I should be wary of there not being bloodiness and hospitalization, do you expect the same from all sparring/pressure testing?

I might have to agee with you criticization of modern systema training tho, we had a post-new years meetup in a bar and at some point the conversation switched to training.
It seems that one of the instructors dislikes Vasiliev's current training for teaching something abstract and not showing more of the old moves, the head instructor even went to say that Ryabkov ignores the basics and practically teaches only for the seniors quoting "ah forget about that" when asked about something basic because he feels he doesn't have the time to explain them, and that Kadochnikov('s son's) seminars keep showing the same things for years and aren't being recorded anymore because "everything's already recorded"
Personally I'm more with Vasiliev because an art needs to evolve, don't know if his approach is practically the same as Ryabkov's elitist approach, Kadochnikov treats Systema as a complete thing tho

BJMills
The only martial foolishness I look back on is mocking a wing tsun school in a thread where everyone was doing so on this same site I now defend a "pussified art" in.
"evil devil worshiping MMA class" Geez even I didn't say that, I can't hate the skills in MMA but I dislike the pump culture
"ego tends to melt away"? Might as well but I personally know people entering it only to compete and beat-down("gotta let myself out"), and it pretty much feeds ego, replies such as "I'll beat you down to the floor" whenever questioned.
Rokas has a black belt, his rank is above mine but it's really his own fault he didnt't test his Aikido in any situation, as he himself said it was very easy to get lost in the moment and forget all training, that's why I've always aimed for "use a little bit more" to keep cool every time I'd spar or get into whatever
apparently nothing I say will make it look like "actual pressure testing" just because of the bias towards my arts of choice

BKR
Sorry, I ended up implying that vulgarity and brutality are equal to tension but I intended to separate the structure of the sentence, it was something that I've seen together often tho
I don't see a use for vulgarity(do we only mean verbal like mom things?) in a fight if you're honestly into it, provocation can go with and without it

Spread so fucking thin, I'm all over the place, what I'm replying to is mostly half "why isn't it bloody?" and half "why should it be bloody?"
It's true that this will probably have to go with videos, at the very least I'll look for a suggested MMA club but I'm already busy enough as it is, student, have training 5 times a week

[hungryjoe]

Michael Tzadok
Does training have to get to the point where people are beaten bloody and hospitalized? more often than not it's a free for all format or one on one than all on one tho
While I did personally get hit in the face multiple times and bleed we don't aim for hurting our opponents but stopping them, that being said we do actually sign a contract that this may happen and that we're ok with it
training hurts, we get hit and we're not taught to desperately block everything, I don't see why you're implying I should be wary of there not being bloodiness and hospitalization, do you expect the same from all sparring/pressure testing?

I might have to agee with you criticization of modern systema training tho, we had a post-new years meetup in a bar and at some point the conversation switched to training.
It seems that one of the instructors dislikes Vasiliev's current training for teaching something abstract and not showing more of the old moves, the head instructor even went to say that Ryabkov ignores the basics and practically teaches only for the seniors quoting "ah forget about that" when asked about something basic because he feels he doesn't have the time to explain them, and that Kadochnikov('s son's) seminars keep showing the same things for years and aren't being recorded anymore because "everything's already recorded"
Personally I'm more with Vasiliev because an art needs to evolve, don't know if his approach is practically the same as Ryabkov's elitist approach, Kadochnikov treats Systema as a complete thing tho

BJMills
The only martial foolishness I look back on is mocking a wing tsun school in a thread where everyone was doing so on this same site I now defend a "pussified art" in.
"evil devil worshiping MMA class" Geez even I didn't say that, I can't hate the skills in MMA but I dislike the pump culture
"ego tends to melt away"? Might as well but I personally know people entering it only to compete and beat-down("gotta let myself out"), and it pretty much feeds ego, replies such as "I'll beat you down to the floor" whenever questioned.
Rokas has a black belt, his rank is above mine but it's really his own fault he didnt't test his Aikido in any situation, as he himself said it was very easy to get lost in the moment and forget all training, that's why I've always aimed for "use a little bit more" to keep cool every time I'd spar or get into whatever
apparently nothing I say will make it look like "actual pressure testing" just because of the bias towards my arts of choice

BKR
Sorry, I ended up implying that vulgarity and brutality are equal to tension but I intended to separate the structure of the sentence, it was something that I've seen together often tho
I don't see a use for vulgarity(do we only mean verbal like mom things?) in a fight if you're honestly into it, provocation can go with and without it

Spread so fucking thin, I'm all over the place, what I'm replying to is mostly half "why isn't it bloody?" and half "why should it be bloody?"
It's true that this will probably have to go with videos, at the very least I'll look for a suggested MMA club but I'm already busy enough as it is, student, have training 5 times a week

Trade the aikido for judo. Honestly put, you'll see more progress in six months of dedicated training than you will from your totality of aikido. This by experience.

[Filipmania]

Well so glad Judo works for you, I'll check it out but I doubt I'll switch over

[BJMills]

BJMills
The only martial foolishness I look back on is mocking a wing tsun school in a thread where everyone was doing so on this same site I now defend a "pussified art" in.
"evil devil worshiping MMA class" Geez even I didn't say that, I can't hate the skills in MMA but I dislike the pump culture
"ego tends to melt away"? Might as well but I personally know people entering it only to compete and beat-down("gotta let myself out"), and it pretty much feeds ego, replies such as "I'll beat you down to the floor" whenever questioned.
Rokas has a black belt, his rank is above mine but it's really his own fault he didnt't test his Aikido in any situation, as he himself said it was very easy to get lost in the moment and forget all training, that's why I've always aimed for "use a little bit more" to keep cool every time I'd spar or get into whatever
apparently nothing I say will make it look like "actual pressure testing" just because of the bias towards my arts of choice

[Dr. Gonzo]

If he wants to pressure test his Aikido, all he has to do is enter a submission grappling or MMA tournament;

All Aikido techniques are legal there.

[BJMills]

If he wants to pressure test his Aikido, all he has to do is enter a submission grappling or MMA tournament;

All Aikido techniques are legal there.

He could even just walk into pretty much any BJJ school.

In fact, at least where I’m at, if he walked into a school without any attitude and just explained what he wanted to do, he’d probably have people lining up to help. By which I mean being pretty chill with him.

He falls in the wrong side of that oddly insurmountable cognitive gap between people who roll and/or spar pretty much every workout and people who never do but like to speculate about the efficacy of a style or technique.

[Michael Tzadok]

Michael Tzadok
Does training have to get to the point where people are beaten bloody and hospitalized? more often than not it's a free for all format or one on one than all on one tho
While I did personally get hit in the face multiple times and bleed we don't aim for hurting our opponents but stopping them, that being said we do actually sign a contract that this may happen and that we're ok with it
training hurts, we get hit and we're not taught to desperately block everything, I don't see why you're implying I should be wary of there not being bloodiness and hospitalization, do you expect the same from all sparring/pressure testing?

I might have to agee with you criticization of modern systema training tho, we had a post-new years meetup in a bar and at some point the conversation switched to training.
It seems that one of the instructors dislikes Vasiliev's current training for teaching something abstract and not showing more of the old moves, the head instructor even went to say that Ryabkov ignores the basics and practically teaches only for the seniors quoting "ah forget about that" when asked about something basic because he feels he doesn't have the time to explain them, and that Kadochnikov('s son's) seminars keep showing the same things for years and aren't being recorded anymore because "everything's already recorded"
Personally I'm more with Vasiliev because an art needs to evolve, don't know if his approach is practically the same as Ryabkov's elitist approach, Kadochnikov treats Systema as a complete thing tho

BJMills
The only martial foolishness I look back on is mocking a wing tsun school in a thread where everyone was doing so on this same site I now defend a "pussified art" in.
"evil devil worshiping MMA class" Geez even I didn't say that, I can't hate the skills in MMA but I dislike the pump culture
"ego tends to melt away"? Might as well but I personally know people entering it only to compete and beat-down("gotta let myself out"), and it pretty much feeds ego, replies such as "I'll beat you down to the floor" whenever questioned.
Rokas has a black belt, his rank is above mine but it's really his own fault he didnt't test his Aikido in any situation, as he himself said it was very easy to get lost in the moment and forget all training, that's why I've always aimed for "use a little bit more" to keep cool every time I'd spar or get into whatever
apparently nothing I say will make it look like "actual pressure testing" just because of the bias towards my arts of choice

BKR
Sorry, I ended up implying that vulgarity and brutality are equal to tension but I intended to separate the structure of the sentence, it was something that I've seen together often tho
I don't see a use for vulgarity(do we only mean verbal like mom things?) in a fight if you're honestly into it, provocation can go with and without it

Spread so fucking thin, I'm all over the place, what I'm replying to is mostly half "why isn't it bloody?" and half "why should it be bloody?"
It's true that this will probably have to go with videos, at the very least I'll look for a suggested MMA club but I'm already busy enough as it is, student, have training 5 times a week

If you are realistically training multi-assailent attacks, not compliant bs, someone is going to get hurt. It was a part of the higher level ROSS instructor certification tests. Guys were regularly knocked out. If done right you learn 2 things. 1) You aren't Jason Bourne, and against multiple opponents you are in a world of trouble. 2) Your only hope of survival is to minimally engage and stay mobile.

RE: Arkady- You will note that the last recordings he did were with his son right before his son went into the Army. 4-5yrs ago(I'd have to look up the exact date) his son was KIA on a GRU Spets op against ISIS. Arkady didn't do anything after that until about 3mos ago. Even then he was drunk or high or both through most of the semminar and it was mostly taught by other people. It has nothing to do with evolution of the system and everything to do with a man trying to manage his grief with limited success.

I really get that you think you are training something effective in VR Systema. So here is some truth. The "old moves" were taken wholesale from ROSS. They plagarized the ROSS manual and even claimed to have been fellow students of Kadochnikov with Retuinskih. That was all proven to be BS. They don't teach the old moves anymore because of the number of lawsuits they faced for patent violations. Search this forum and you will find where I and others have documented how all of their claims from personal military experience to lineage have been ever shifting and false.

Are they good at making it seem real and effective? Yeah sure they are. Darren Brown also made a kid believe he was living through a Zombie apocalypse. If you don't know what to look out for the human mind is incredibly susceptible to suggestion. That is where all the no touch throws come from.

Here is a real test for whether an instructor is a fake, can they produce someone who is as good or better than themselves? Vlad has been teaching since the early 90's(Ryabko didn't even enter the picture until 2000). Yet in over two decades of teaching he has yet to produce anyone even on equal skill level. That should be a huge red flag.