Physical limits of human hand strength?

[Za]

I took martial arts years ago and was taught that the human hand can become strong enough to rip another humans flesh right off, rip joins out of socket and pull muscle apart from bone. That one, with strong enough hands, could block an incoming punch and use their finger tips, as they blocked, to also destroy the muscle and skin of the punching arm.

I was also taught that the human ear only takes three pounds of pressure to remove and that this can be done with bare hands.

And finally, that a man could make his palm strikes so strong that they could basically destroy things. A story was told about someone who purportedly killed a horse with a slap. The idea was that by hitting some bags full of beans for a very long time, then rocks, then metal balls, that one could make their palm strikes powerful to a superhuman level.

Are any of these things true?

EDIT:

I understand that the above claims are probably nonsense but wanted to get the truth from people who are experts at cutting through bs. Thanks in advance.

[submessenger]

MABS->YMAS.

Have fun, guys. Try not to hurt him.

[Za]

MABS->YMAS.

Have fun, guys. Try not to hurt him.

Lol. To be clear, I have always been very skeptical of these claims, hence why I am here. I expect that 99% of these claims is utter hogwash but wanted to get clarification.

[Raycetpfl]

I took martial arts years ago and was taught that the human hand can become strong enough to rip another humans flesh right off, rip joins out of socket and pull muscle apart from bone. That one, with strong enough hands, could block an incoming punch and use their finger tips, as they blocked, to also destroy the muscle and skin of the punching arm.

I was also taught that the human ear only takes three pounds of pressure to remove and that this can be done with bare hands.

And finally, that a man could make his palm strikes so strong that they could basically destroy things. A story was told about someone who purportedly killed a horse with a slap. The idea was that by hitting some bags full of beans for a very long time, then rocks, then metal balls, that one could make their palm strikes powerful to a superhuman level.

Are any of these things true?

EDIT:

I understand that the above claims are probably nonsense but wanted to get the truth from people who are experts at cutting through bs. Thanks in advance.

He probably had an accent and said,"whores". So.... ,yeah, a shot to the temple and a bad fall will do it. But you should probably call the cops. You cant just go around killing whores.

[submessenger]

We do get some charlatans, here, so apologies for the rough welcome.


Welcome to Bullshido!


Let me take a first stab at your queries:

I took martial arts years ago and was taught that the human hand can become strong enough to rip another humans flesh right off, rip joins out of socket and pull muscle apart from bone.

Sure, these things can and do happen by accident, believe it or not, during training. I've seen plenty of breaks, compound injuries (i.e. bone protrusions), sprains, bruises, etc in various competitions.

That one, with strong enough hands, could block an incoming punch and use their finger tips, as they blocked, to also destroy the muscle and skin of the punching arm.

This seems plausible, but perhaps a bit on the extreme side.

I was also taught that the human ear only takes three pounds of pressure to remove and that this can be done with bare hands.

I have no empirical evidence of this, but it sounds plausible. Three pounds maybe is an understatement.

And finally, that a man could make his palm strikes so strong that they could basically destroy things. A story was told about someone who purportedly killed a horse with a slap. The idea was that by hitting some bags full of beans for a very long time, then rocks, then metal balls, that one could make their palm strikes powerful to a superhuman level.

Not to a superhuman level. Obviously, it's a human doing so. We do have a resident Iron Palm expert, perhaps he will be along to explain his art. Yes, you can do things like cause heart attacks, traumatic brain injuries, etc with striking.

[Za]

We do get some charlatans, here, so apologies for the rough welcome.


Welcome to Bullshido!


Let me take a first stab at your queries:


Sure, these things can and do happen by accident, believe it or not, during training. I've seen plenty of breaks, compound injuries (i.e. bone protrusions), sprains, bruises, etc in various competitions.


This seems plausible, but perhaps a bit on the extreme side.


I have no empirical evidence of this, but it sounds plausible. Three pounds maybe is an understatement.


Not to a superhuman level. Obviously, it's a human doing so. We do have a resident Iron Palm expert, perhaps he will be along to explain his art. Yes, you can do things like cause heart attacks, traumatic brain injuries, etc with striking.

Thanks and Whoa! So, hold on, most of these claims are plausible? Huh! I had always assumed the opposite! Very interesting!

Specifically, though, what about literally being able to grab onto a hunk of flesh, like the skin on the bicep for example, and pulling it clean off, probably along with muscle? This is plausible? And Iron Palm is real? Again, even while being instructed and having great respect for my teacher, I always thought that these things, Iron Palm in particular, sounded like science fiction.

So, to delve a little deeper, the idea we were taught was that if one used something called an "eagle catcher" (a metal frame with springs to exercise each finger) they could make their fingers strong enough to do these things. That coupled with a punishing amount of push-ups and fully vertical hand stand push-ups (among other exercises) was supposed to make a person strong enough for these feats. Is this also plausible?

[submessenger]

Thanks and Whoa! So, hold on, most of these claims are plausible? Huh! I had always assumed the opposite! Very interesting!

Specifically, though, what about literally being able to grab onto a hunk of flesh, like the skin on the bicep for example, and pulling it clean off, probably along with muscle? This is plausible? And Iron Palm is real? Again, even while being instructed and having great respect for my teacher, I always thought that these things, Iron Palm in particular, sounded like science fiction.

So, to delve a little deeper, the idea we were taught was that if one used something called an "eagle catcher" (a metal frame with springs to exercise each finger) they could make their fingers strong enough to do these things. That coupled with a punishing amount of push-ups and fully vertical hand stand push-ups (among other exercises) was supposed to make a person strong enough for these feats. Is this also plausible?

You're getting into specifics which I can't address. Any competent grappling art practitioner can, conceivably, break limbs, separate joints, suffocate, or kill their opponent(s). It sounds barbaric, and nobody really says it like that, but that is the truth, and what we train to do. If you're asking Remo Williams-style can martial artists poke holes through biceps with their fingers, I would have to say "no," but if you're asking if somebody with sufficient grip strength could severely mess up an opponents arm, sure. That's in the wheelhouse, and some arts actually train for esoteric scenarios like that. But, it's more trouble than its worth, because with a little training you can become proficient at breaking or separating limbs, or suffocation, so why bother with such curiosities?

[NeilG]

One of the well-known tests for grip strength is the Iron Mind Captains of Crush gripper. These grippers are numbered from 1 to 4, and the #4 gripper requires 365 lbs of pressure to close. There are only a handful of people in the world that have formally been certified as able to close one.

For comparison, most fit men could probably close the trainer version (100 lbs). I can close the #1, (140 lbs). When I was weight training more I could just about close the #2 (195 lbs), and I would say that many guys who are in the gym a lot and lifting heavy could do the #2. The #3 (280 lbs) is out of reach for the vast majority of even pretty strong guys.

So there's your range of grip strength: fit guy, 100 lbs. Reasonably strong guy, 140 lbs. Strong guy, 195 lbs. Serious strength athlete, 280 lbs. Genetic freak who lifts heavy stuff for a living, 365 lbs. Extrapolate flesh-ripping ability as you will.

[Permalost]

Claims that it takes only X lbs of pressure to break Y are usually unsourced bullshit. Someone on social media said it takes only 5lbs of force to break a knee, so I posted a picture of a 5lb weight sitting on my extended knee. I'll bet I could hang a 3lb weight from my ear too. I doubt any angry old school mothers have ever accidentally tore their kids ear off by applying more than 3lbs of pressure with the parental ear drag.

There's plenty of evidence of hard kicks to the knee, strikes to the bridge of the nose etc that show that the human body is more durable than karate lore would have you believe.

[Za]

You're getting into specifics which I can't address. Any competent grappling art practitioner can, conceivably, break limbs, separate joints, suffocate, or kill their opponent(s). It sounds barbaric, and nobody really says it like that, but that is the truth, and what we train to do. If you're asking Remo Williams-style can martial artists poke holes through biceps with their fingers, I would have to say "no," but if you're asking if somebody with sufficient grip strength could severely mess up an opponents arm, sure. That's in the wheelhouse, and some arts actually train for esoteric scenarios like that. But, it's more trouble than its worth, because with a little training you can become proficient at breaking or separating limbs, or suffocation, so why bother with such curiosities?

Interesting. So it sounds like what I was taught was largely an exaggeration. We were taught breaks and joint manipulation which were clearly possible. However what seemed impossible it sounds like you agree is impossible and that would be using finger strength alone to tear through skin and muscle.

As for why to bother? I believe that the idea is that if this were actually possible then there wouldn't be much else to need to know. It would be like a human fighting Zoidberg from Futurama; unless the human had a weapon (like a giant lobster shell cracker) the human is outmatched because Zoidberg has skin and muscle destroying weapons for hands. If you could have hands this strong then it is almost impossible that a grappler could ever beat you unless they too had this power. Any of their skin that got near your fingers would be destroyed (Edit: ripped clean off) and their muscles beneath would cease to function (Edit: also ripped clean off). Strikers would be much more difficult to handle with this supposed ability but even with them there would probably be a time when some part of their body got within the superman grip and they would also be doomed to lose skin and muscle.

Heck, add to that and the ability to slap so hard it could kill a horse (I believe the story was that it liquefied the inside of the horse) and you could learn two extremely simply techniques and be darn near unstoppable. You'd slap strikers and their arms would turn to goop and grapplers you'd rip their muscles out and they would go limp.

However, if it isn't even possible then it makes much more sense to train in a variety of techniques like you referenced above.

It stands to reason that it is impossible because this is unheard of as far as I know. The only place I have ever heard it spoken of is long ago at my old martial arts school and then only in tales of ages past. We were taught basically to fight in strange patterns that assumed this kind of hand strength on our part. Like the block I described above: as you block you rip the opponents muscles out. So a bizarre block that wouldn't work very well with normal finger strength becomes a really useful block with superman grip. That said, if no such grip exists, then a great deal of what we were told was, ugh it hurts to say it but, BS :(

I had always suspected it, about 60% was based on or involved this or other kinds of things that seemed fishy, but it still is sad to get confirmation. Oh well, the other 40% is still pretty decent technique at least!

Come to think of it, if these two techniques were really as powerful as the stories claim and could be learned by regular people, then why wouldn't these be the only things the school would teach? Zoidberg claw and horse liquefying strike. Done. But instead the school taught standard striking technique and some standard grappling as well, so we can probably assume that these skills are greatly exaggerated, impossible, or, at the very least, extremely rare, like one in a billion humans could do anything near this. That rare human would be nearly invincible, but that doesn't mean there is any logic in a normal human training to do it, because they couldn't pull it off.

I'm leaning toward impossible, but you all are the experts so I'll reserve judgement until someone can prove one way or the other with science.

[Za]

Claims that it takes only X lbs of pressure to break Y are usually unsourced bullshit. Someone on social media said it takes only 5lbs of force to break a knee, so I posted a picture of a 5lb weight sitting on my extended knee. I'll bet I could hang a 3lb weight from my ear too. I doubt any angry old school mothers have ever accidentally tore their kids ear off by applying more than 3lbs of pressure with the parental ear drag.

There's plenty of evidence of hard kicks to the knee, strikes to the bridge of the nose etc that show that the human body is more durable than karate lore would have you believe.

Thanks. My thoughts exactly. But then, what is the real science of it? Is there any sourced non bs about the real numbers, pounds of pressure, etc.?

[Za]

One of the well-known tests for grip strength is the Iron Mind Captains of Crush gripper. These grippers are numbered from 1 to 4, and the #4 gripper requires 365 lbs of pressure to close. There are only a handful of people in the world that have formally been certified as able to close one.

For comparison, most fit men could probably close the trainer version (100 lbs). I can close the #1, (140 lbs). When I was weight training more I could just about close the #2 (195 lbs), and I would say that many guys who are in the gym a lot and lifting heavy could do the #2. The #3 (280 lbs) is out of reach for the vast majority of even pretty strong guys.

So there's your range of grip strength: fit guy, 100 lbs. Reasonably strong guy, 140 lbs. Strong guy, 195 lbs. Serious strength athlete, 280 lbs. Genetic freak who lifts heavy stuff for a living, 365 lbs. Extrapolate flesh-ripping ability as you will.

Thanks! Now if we knew the tensile strength of human skin/muscle we would have some real data to work with. Does anyone know? If someone can generate these amounts of pressure, could they literally rip flesh and muscle off of a body?

I'm inclined to think, no, just because you'd think that someone would rip someones arm off or something and it would be on the news. However this is unheard of from reliable sources to my knowledge.

Then again, even if the skin were not removed, 365 lbs of pressure would crush bone, wouldn't it? So perhaps the stories from ancient martial arts tales are true but maybe exaggerated? If a martial artist crushed the bones in an enemies arm with nothing but their fingers that pretty much validates the technique and then we can assume the skin and muscle being literally removed is hyperbole?

Again, though, science? I simply am out of my depth!

[submessenger]

Interesting. So it sounds like what I was taught was largely an exaggeration. We were taught breaks and joint manipulation which were clearly possible. However what seemed impossible it sounds like you agree is impossible and that would be using finger strength alone to tear through skin and muscle.

As for why to bother? I believe that the idea is that if this were actually possible then there wouldn't be much else to need to know. It would be like a human fighting Zoidberg from Futurama; unless the human had a weapon (like a giant lobster shell cracker) the human is outmatched because Zoidberg has skin and muscle destroying weapons for hands. If you could have hands this strong then it is almost impossible that a grappler could ever beat you unless they too had this power. Any of their skin that got near your fingers would be destroyed and their muscles beneath would cease to function. Strikers would be much more difficult to handle with this supposed ability but even with them there would probably be a time when some part of their body got within the superman grip and they would also be doomed to lose skin and muscle.

Heck, add to that and the ability to slap so hard it could kill a horse (I believe the story was that it liquefied the inside of the horse) and you could learn two extremely simply techniques and be darn near unstoppable. You'd slap strikers and their arms would turn to goop and grapplers you'd rip their muscles out and they would go limp.

However, if it isn't even possible then it makes much more sense to train in a variety of techniques like you referenced above.

It stands to reason that it is impossible because this is unheard of as far as I know. The only place I have ever heard it spoken of is long ago at my old martial arts school and then only in tales of ages past. We were taught basically to fight in strange patterns that assumed this kind of hand strength on our part. Like the block I described above: as you block you rip the opponents muscles out. So a bizarre block that wouldn't work very well with normal finger strength becomes a really useful block with superman grip. That said, if no such grip exists, then a great deal of what we were told was, ugh it hurts to say it but, BS :(

I had always suspected it, about 60% was based on or involved this or other kinds of things that seemed fishy, but it still is sad to get confirmation. Oh well, the other 40% is still pretty decent technique at least!

Come to think of it, if these two techniques were really as powerful as the stories claim and could be learned by regular people, then why wouldn't these be the only things the school would teach? Zoidberg claw and horse liquefying strike. Done. But instead the school taught standard striking technique and some standard grappling as well, so we can probably assume that these skills are greatly exaggerated, impossible, or, at the very least, extremely rare, like one in a billion humans could do anything near this. That rare human would be nearly invincible, but that doesn't mean there is any logic in a normal human training to do it, because they couldn't pull it off.

I'm leaning toward impossible, but you all are the experts so I'll reserve judgement until someone can prove one way or the other with science.

Zoidberg and liquid horse both require incredible amounts of strength to be plausible, which would require years and years of training. Grappling can teach you how to snap somebody's arm or choke them out, and be effective, in under a year, and you probably wouldn't even have to change your diet. Zoidberg has some additional limitations, because it sounds like a very specific attack against a very specific body part. The beauty of grappling is that leverage works everywhere, so even if you don't "know," a specific technique, you can probably work it out, if you think about it.

[ermghoti]

I don't really care except that I want Zoidberg Kung Fu to be a real thing.

[Za]

Zoidberg and liquid horse both require incredible amounts of strength to be plausible, which would require years and years of training. Grappling can teach you how to snap somebody's arm or choke them out, and be effective, in under a year, and you probably wouldn't even have to change your diet. Zoidberg has some additional limitations, because it sounds like a very specific attack against a very specific body part. The beauty of grappling is that leverage works everywhere, so even if you don't "know," a specific technique, you can probably work it out, if you think about it.

Indeed. In real life terms I think we are in agreement. But in the fictional realm the idea was that you could Zoidberg ANY body part. So any part that you could touch would have the skin and muscle torn off entirely. You would be nearly invincible. But yeah in real life probably only useful against certain targets and would take years or a lifetime to get proficient so your suggestions are much more reasonable.

Though another user posted something about a (rare) human hand being able to generate 365 pounds of pressure! If that's true, then I go back to wondering if this is a real technique lol! I don't think any body part could stand up to being crushed under 365 pounds of pressure so maybe a real world version of the Zoidberg technique that crushes but does not remove skin or muscle is possible? If so, then that person wouldn't need to know much technique at all, anything in reach gets crushed. A regular person needs to know how the opponents body works and how to bend it or strike it in which way to damage it, but if you can crush bone with your hands easy peasy then you just need to grab anything at all and squish. Your opponent would either give up or be so injured they couldn't continue. Imagine trying to put someone in any number of arm bars or head locks, part of you is going to be within reach of their fingers either as you approach them, grapple them into position, or even in position depending on the type of hold, and then they grab you and *squish*. Seriously, this has to be impossible! It just sounds so science fiction, action hero movieish. If not, then why don't we hear about people doing this?

The other users data may be correct but then there must be some reason that this cannot be done based on blood flow or angles or something, right?