Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Systema Ground Work is Awesome

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Systema Ground Work is Awesome



    My favorite bit is at 2:10
    What happens when you end up on the ground, and the guy is bigger, he's stronger he's up on top. And then there is a third person coming in to hit you?
    The simple answer to that is that you are going to get your face rearranged. I really wish they would have given their magical systema grappling answer, but I'm not sure even someone like Dean Lister or Andre Galvao would be able to reliably fight their way out of that.

    #2
    At no point in that video did i see anything even remotely resembling any sort of pressure or control from the demonstrator on their opponent. Just impotent flailing and unrealistic feedback. They'll probably sell a ton of these

    Comment


      #3
      I'm not getting exactly the point of the video. I see some flow-type drills poorly done, like a bunch of white belts, with the skinny, hollow-chested instructor only being marginally better.

      What is really confusing is that for self defense, I'd either want to control, or finish a guy off, on the ground, and I'm not going to stay on the ground any longer than I have too.

      I don't see any control, and no striking.

      Systema is about self defense, correct ?

      Maybe this stuff is like the Shomen Uchi drills you posted in another thread...conceptual exercises.

      I'd put Dean Lister up against 2 or 3 bigger stronger dudes, no problem. As long as they were not BJJ black belts. But he is a freak of nature, and outliers are not the way to judge effectiveness for mere mortals.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by BKR View Post
        I'm not getting exactly the point of the video. I see some flow-type drills poorly done, like a bunch of white belts, with the skinny, hollow-chested instructor only being marginally better.

        What is really confusing is that for self defense, I'd either want to control, or finish a guy off, on the ground, and I'm not going to stay on the ground any longer than I have too.

        I don't see any control, and no striking.

        Systema is about self defense, correct ?

        Maybe this stuff is like the Shomen Uchi drills you posted in another thread...conceptual exercises.

        I'd put Dean Lister up against 2 or 3 bigger stronger dudes, no problem. As long as they were not BJJ black belts. But he is a freak of nature, and outliers are not the way to judge effectiveness for mere mortals.
        TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

        Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

        The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Falenay View Post
          TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

          Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

          The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.
          Being evasive and slippery is a good thing, for sure. But it's not the be all and end all.

          As for DK Yoo...haven't seen any footage of him actually fighting with anybody who knows what they are doing. Have you?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by BKR View Post
            Systema is about self defense, correct ?
            More like money and Russian Orthodox Jesus

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Falenay View Post
              TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

              Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

              The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.
              Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

              DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by halfcut View Post
                More like money and Russian Orthodox Jesus
                Of course, but I was just pretending for sake of discussion.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                  Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

                  DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.
                  Indeed they have.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                    Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

                    DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.
                    I would never claim that DK Yoo can fight, only that he definitely is able to produce real power through kinetic chains - which in the context of Systema is often used to make a case for the superiorness of Systema because it looks like their twerking. Does this make him a fighter? Or any guy who can punch and does Systema? By all means no.

                    I never claimed otherwise. I even pointed out that you obviously do not learn to even punch at all within Systema because of the way they train.

                    In other words, against dumbassery:

                    1) Systema training seems to consist exclusively of conceptual exercises of how to relax, be in movement, evade forces.
                    2) Even IF one is very benevolent and concedes that this MIGHT lead to a point where one is able to be very evasive in a fight (I do not believe that), they do not learn to attack with power in their weird exercises.
                    3) DK Yoo can do a powerful punch by exploiting kinetic chains. It looks a bit like Systema, people claim it is (I do not think so). Some Systema guys can punch (although the videos I saw are against completely untrained guys).
                    4) Thesis: All of them did not learn to punch with reasonable power in Systema, since the training method is not adequate for that.
                    5) Even IF (and that's a big if) they WOULD in years and years and years of compliant flow exercises learn how to do a powerful punch, that is not the same as being able to fight, even less be good in self-defence
                    6) Systema is bullshit for fighting in any rule-set or self-defence.

                    Guess I cannot make myself understood more clearly.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                      They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.
                      This. So much this. They have moved away from the actual fighting stuff and technique that they once sorta demonstrated, mostly because I don't think they ever really knew how to teach it, and just focused more and more on the vague esoteric drills. I mean I may have grapplers practice back steps to a decent tempo waltz, but that is a drill to help them get the movement and timing down before they practice it with a partner and before they put a technique on it.

                      These guys just took some Combat Sambo drills for flow and movement and stripped away just about everything logical about them. The way this drill originally looked was that you would flow against one(or more) opponents without trying for techniques, but rather accustoming yourself to spotting opportunities and exploiting them until forced to abandon and move on. Done right it is a really good drill. I played it with a couple of guys tonight in BJJ because of seasonal allergies that wouldn't allow me to roll hard, and it impressed my coaches. Instead these guys took that, stripped away the idea of technique, control, pressure, and came up with this... Amazing.

                      Originally posted by Falenay View Post
                      I would never claim that DK Yoo can fight, only that he definitely is able to produce real power through kinetic chains - which in the context of Systema is often used to make a case for the superiorness of Systema because it looks like their twerking. Does this make him a fighter? Or any guy who can punch and does Systema? By all means no.

                      I never claimed otherwise. I even pointed out that you obviously do not learn to even punch at all within Systema because of the way they train.

                      In other words, against dumbassery:

                      1) Systema training seems to consist exclusively of conceptual exercises of how to relax, be in movement, evade forces.
                      2) Even IF one is very benevolent and concedes that this MIGHT lead to a point where one is able to be very evasive in a fight (I do not believe that), they do not learn to attack with power in their weird exercises.
                      3) DK Yoo can do a powerful punch by exploiting kinetic chains. It looks a bit like Systema, people claim it is (I do not think so). Some Systema guys can punch (although the videos I saw are against completely untrained guys).
                      4) Thesis: All of them did not learn to punch with reasonable power in Systema, since the training method is not adequate for that.
                      5) Even IF (and that's a big if) they WOULD in years and years and years of compliant flow exercises learn how to do a powerful punch, that is not the same as being able to fight, even less be good in self-defence
                      6) Systema is bullshit for fighting in any rule-set or self-defence.

                      Guess I cannot make myself understood more clearly.
                      I get what you are saying. First let's take a look at Vlad's Bio
                      Vladimir moved to Canada, and in 1993 founded the first school of Russian Martial Art outside Russia - Systema Headquarters. He has since personally trained and certified well over 600 qualified Russian Martial Art Systema instructors and schools in over 40 countries worldwide, and has produced an Award-Winning instructional film collection. Vladimir holds a number of government medals and awards including the Russian "Order of Duty and Honor" and the "Order of Loyalty". He offers regular training at his school in Toronto, at international seminars and camps and through Systema video program.
                      https://www.russianmartialart.com/founders.php

                      So here is the thing. Vlad has been teaching for 25yrs. Yet in 25yrs he hasn't produced anyone anywhere near his level. Never mind whether his level is good or bad or whatever, in 25 years he should have had at least one student who has graduated from student to something close to a training partner(or actual training partner). He should have someone who is better at some things than he is. Even if you want to tell me that he is still training and improving himself so he will always be ahead of his students(that is their official line by the way) he should have produced someone that can strike as hard as himself, and pull off the other magic tricks on n00bs that he does. That he hasn't... That to me is a major red flag.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                        So here is the thing. Vlad has been teaching for 25yrs. Yet in 25yrs he hasn't produced anyone anywhere near his level. Never mind whether his level is good or bad or whatever, in 25 years he should have had at least one student who has graduated from student to something close to a training partner(or actual training partner). He should have someone who is better at some things than he is. Even if you want to tell me that he is still training and improving himself so he will always be ahead of his students(that is their official line by the way) he should have produced someone that can strike as hard as himself, and pull off the other magic tricks on n00bs that he does. That he hasn't... That to me is a major red flag.
                        This seems to be unique to the Toronto camp. The other Systema organizations like Kadochnikov and ROSS have both produced individuals who have met or exceeded the abilities of the heads of the organization, which is how it should be if you're not a shitty teacher. That being said, neither Alexsy Kadochnikov nor Alexander Retuinskih positioned themselves as exceptual or untouchable in their abilities

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Dreaded internalz again?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by DCS View Post
                            Dreaded internalz again?
                            Apparently it's all that yet again.

                            Keep trying, DCS, and one day you too will be ripping small trees out of the ground with one hand/arm.

                            Comment

                            Collapse

                            Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                            Working...
                            X