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    Origins of BJJ Striking?

    Anyone can see that Royce Gracie had striking in early UFCs, and that striking is very unique compared other striking popular at the time (point fighting karate, muay thai, boxing.)

    Where did BJJ striking originate from?
    1. The ancient Samurai had striking as evidenced by JJJ.
    2. Professor Kano excluded striking from Judo sparring.
    3. Gracie Jiu Jitsu evolves from Kano's system.
    4. But Gracie Jiu Jitsu didn't get sparring with striking from Kano's system, because Kano's system reserved striking for kata.

    So where did the striking in BJJ come from?
    A. Other styles of Jiu Jitsu made it to Brazil and influenced Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
    B. Through Vale Tudo like fights, Gracie Jiu Jitsu adapted to strikers by picking up a few of their moves.
    C. Gracie Jiu Jitsu sparred with the Kano Kata techniques and relearned their true applications.
    D. "Evolves from Judo", GJJ reinvented striking sparring on their own.
    E. All of the Above
    F. None of the above - BJJ striking, are you kidding?

    #2
    Originally posted by BFGalbraith View Post
    Anyone can see that Royce Gracie had striking in early UFCs, and that striking is very unique compared other striking popular at the time (point fighting karate, muay thai, boxing.)

    Where did BJJ striking originate from?
    1. The ancient Samurai had striking as evidenced by JJJ.
    2. Professor Kano excluded striking from Judo sparring.
    3. Gracie Jiu Jitsu evolves from Kano's system.
    4. But Gracie Jiu Jitsu didn't get sparring with striking from Kano's system, because Kano's system reserved striking for kata.

    So where did the striking in BJJ come from?
    A. Other styles of Jiu Jitsu made it to Brazil and influenced Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
    B. Through Vale Tudo like fights, Gracie Jiu Jitsu adapted to strikers by picking up a few of their moves.
    C. Gracie Jiu Jitsu sparred with the Kano Kata techniques and relearned their true applications.
    D. "Evolves from Judo", GJJ reinvented striking sparring on their own.
    E. All of the Above
    F. None of the above - BJJ striking, are you kidding?
    You've asked this before and I've answered it before. So I'll try again:
    Mitsuyo Maeda- All BJJ/GJJ comes from him.

    Maeda had two really famous students that passed on what he taught them. Carlos Gracie and Luis Franca.

    From Carlos Gracie comes what you call GJJ. Luis Franca had several important students as well from whence several important BJJ come, most notably Arte Livre under Neury Gomes and Nova Uniao(originally under Oswaldo Fadda).

    No holds barred challenge matches also started with Maeda
    This set up two separate, but virtually identicle(in terms of technique) lineages of BJJ in Brazil.
    https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighte...-facts-and-bio

    It should be noted that GJJ has since adopted leg locks.

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      #3
      Beautifully written Michael. I was going to say the same thing, but in a considerably less researched manner.

      Edit: If you’re a GJJ person and don’t know about Oswaldo Fadda, you’re missing out on half the history of BJJ.
      Shut the hell up and train.

      Comment


        #4

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          #5
          Shut the hell up and train.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by BFGalbraith View Post
            Anyone can see that Royce Gracie had striking in early UFCs, and that striking is very unique compared other striking popular at the time (point fighting karate, muay thai, boxing.)

            Where did BJJ striking originate from?
            1. The ancient Samurai had striking as evidenced by JJJ.
            2. Professor Kano excluded striking from Judo sparring.
            3. Gracie Jiu Jitsu evolves from Kano's system.
            4. But Gracie Jiu Jitsu didn't get sparring with striking from Kano's system, because Kano's system reserved striking for kata.

            So where did the striking in BJJ come from?
            A. Other styles of Jiu Jitsu made it to Brazil and influenced Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
            B. Through Vale Tudo like fights, Gracie Jiu Jitsu adapted to strikers by picking up a few of their moves.
            C. Gracie Jiu Jitsu sparred with the Kano Kata techniques and relearned their true applications.
            D. "Evolves from Judo", GJJ reinvented striking sparring on their own.
            E. All of the Above
            F. None of the above - BJJ striking, are you kidding?
            Quite a bit of boxing got introduced into jiu-jitsu by the Gracies.
            I dont know if you remember Vitors early jiu-jitsu style but he is a Carlson Gracie / BTT product.

            This is his first fight ever.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
              You've asked this before and I've answered it before. So I'll try again:
              Mitsuyo Maeda- All BJJ/GJJ comes from him.

              Maeda had two really famous students that passed on what he taught them. Carlos Gracie and Luis Franca.

              From Carlos Gracie comes what you call GJJ. Luis Franca had several important students as well from whence several important BJJ come, most notably Arte Livre under Neury Gomes and Nova Uniao(originally under Oswaldo Fadda).

              No holds barred challenge matches also started with Maeda


              This set up two separate, but virtually identicle(in terms of technique) lineages of BJJ in Brazil.

              https://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighte...-facts-and-bio

              It should be noted that GJJ has since adopted leg locks.
              But but but....pro wrestling....

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                Mitsuyo Maeda- All BJJ/GJJ comes from him.
                Really...? Hmmm...

                Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                Maeda had two really famous students that passed on what he taught them. Carlos Gracie and Luis Franca.
                Maeda himself acknowledged only one non-Japanese Brazilian student that he issued a teacher's license to in the Brazilian newspapers of the day, and that Brazilian's name was Donato Pires dos Reis.
                If you can find a newspaper article of the day where Maeda himself is quoted as having trained Carlos Gracie, you will be famous forever as a Jiu-Jitsu history researcher.
                Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                No holds barred challenge matches also started with Maeda
                No holds barred matches started long before Maeda.
                And mixed style fighting in Brazil predated the arrival of Maeda and pre-dated Carlos Gracie.
                Including fighters representing the style of Jiu-Jitsu in those Brazilian mixed style matches.
                The Fadda lineage and the Gracie lineages appeared to have significant mutual respect for each other.
                They are both fine lineages of Jiu-Jitsu, of a certainty.
                Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 7/08/2018 12:03pm, .

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                  Really...? Hmmm...


                  Maeda himself acknowledged only one non-Japanese Brazilian student that he issued a teacher's license to in the Brazilian newspapers of the day, and that Brazilian's name was Donato Pires dos Reis.
                  If you can find a newspaper article of the day where Maeda himself is quoted as having trained Carlos Gracie, you will be famous forever as a Jiu-Jitsu history researcher.

                  No holds barred matches started long before Maeda.
                  And mixed style fighting in Brazil predated the arrival of Maeda and pre-dated Carlos Gracie.
                  Including fighters representing the style of Jiu-Jitsu in those Brazilian mixed style matches.

                  The Fadda lineage and the Gracie lineages appeared to have significant mutual respect for each other.
                  They are both fine lineages of Jiu-Jitsu, of a certainty.
                  Yeah I'm gonna leave the research stuff down to Robert Drysdale. He's the one doing the documentary on it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                    Yeah I'm gonna leave the research stuff down to Robert Drysdale. He's the one doing the documentary on it.
                    He is actually quite an enthusiastic at least amateur historian across the board, and fairly bright when it comes to history.
                    And good company.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The strikes are there to setup the take downs or provoke a desired reaction. Those side kicks royce used in esrly ufc were shit but he wanted to draw his opponents into a trap. Alot of bjj guys who go the mma/vale tudo route use/used boxing as their striking base.
                      Last edited by Kravbizarre; 7/08/2018 10:16pm, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kravbizarre View Post
                        The strikes are there to setup the take downs or provoke a desired reaction. Those side kicks royce used in esrly ufc were shit but he wanted to draw his opponents into a trap. Alot of bjj guys who go the mma/vale tudo route use/used boxing as their striking base.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          GJJ striking conceptually similar to Judo striking

                          Originally posted by Kravbizarre View Post
                          The strikes are there to setup the take downs or provoke a desired reaction. Those side kicks royce used in esrly ufc were shit but he wanted to draw his opponents into a trap. Alot of bjj guys who go the mma/vale tudo route use/used boxing as their striking base.
                          1) And this is explicitly stated in instructional videos from the 90's that I have seen.
                          2) It is also interesting to note that in regards to fighting Benny the Jet, at some point the statement was made by the challenged Gracie "I am not a kick boxer." The context is in doing a stand up fight vs BtJ, so the implication is "we do striking, but not that kind of striking."
                          3) This is a direct connection to Judo, where the Atemi Waza would be to cause pain and distraction in order to set up or aid grappling attacks. (My source on this one is some Sensei who's name who I can't remember at the Seattle Dojo some time between 2002 and 2012. If any forum posters have a divergent opinion from this, I stand corrected.)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by BFGalbraith View Post
                            1) And this is explicitly stated in instructional videos from the 90's that I have seen.
                            2) It is also interesting to note that in regards to fighting Benny the Jet, at some point the statement was made by the challenged Gracie "I am not a kick boxer." The context is in doing a stand up fight vs BtJ, so the implication is "we do striking, but not that kind of striking."
                            3) This is a direct connection to Judo, where the Atemi Waza would be to cause pain and distraction in order to set up or aid grappling attacks. (My source on this one is some Sensei who's name who I can't remember at the Seattle Dojo some time between 2002 and 2012. If any forum posters have a divergent opinion from this, I stand corrected.)
                            Judo has no formal atemi waza that I know of, and no systematic syllabus for atemi waza. Just the stuff you see in the various kata.

                            The use of atemi waza as a distraction, to set up throws/takedowns, is common to JJJ in general, from what I can see, particularly the Edo period stuff.

                            So it's not necessarily a link to Kodokan Judo, other than conceptually, with what it has in common with other forms of JJJ.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Origins of BJJ striking

                              Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                              I don't know how many times I have to say, this:
                              Mitsuyo Maeda!!!! ....Maeda had two really famous students that passed on what he taught them....
                              So to extrapolate here to make sure I am not jumping to any conclusions:
                              1) Maeda was a 1st generation Judo practitioner. This meant he probably did some informal randori with Judo's Atemi Waza.
                              2) Maeda was a no-holds-barred fighter known as Count Combat, nicknamed "strongest man who ever lived", who told stories to his JJ students about traveling and training with boxers and french kickboxers (that lead leg kick Royce used in UFC starts to make a lot more sense historically in that context.)
                              3) Maeda wasn't particularly purist when it came to Judo, had no problem adapting his art to his no-holds-barred circumstances, and taught his students to do the same (if by example than by no other means.)

                              Not directly related to the original question side note: Maeda's Judo instructor was particularly interested in small fighters being able to take out larger fighters (yes I realize there was this "size does not matter" ethic in early Judo, but this instructor was particularly focused on that point,) which explains that ethic being valued in the development of BJJ.

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