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    #16
    It bans legitimate karate technique. Kyokushin should claim its' rightful throne.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Permalost View Post
      Why do you guys want it to be muay thai?
      That is a concern in the other direction... The takedowns should help mitigate that somewhat. In some of the matches guys were full on shooting doubles, which is bad for the traditional Muay Thai stance.

      My point is, if all of these strikes are in traditional karate, let them be applied here too.

      Comment


        #18
        Well, this promotion has been going on for a couple of months, and seems to be gaining a fair amount of traction. I'm just gonna post a few links if people are interested in watching some of their more recent tournaments, alongside some thoughts (I literally only came upon this yesterday, and watched their most recent Hollywood tourney).

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeWmqOB1p1k (06/1, Athens)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8HUjlRV_zA (09/18, New York)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQQ6cQhuoM&t=8557s (01/19, Hollywood)


        Overall thoughts:
        -First and foremost, excellent sportsmanship. I haven't watched all of the New York or Athens tourneys, but if the Hollywood one is anything to go by, virtually no showboating and a tremendous amount of respect between opponents of almost any nationality. Very cool!

        -Now, obviously, some of these guys aren't as good of strikers as a dedicated muay thai/kickboxer guy. But damn if everyone didn't have some impressive enthusiasm.

        -It's interesting, according to their records on the main website, most all of these guys have only fought in this format once. You can actually tell in some cases; not a few of the matches start with both opponents approaching the timing and distancing as if they were in a point Karate match, and they tend to follow up with single strikes. Eventually, most of them get into the swing of striking multiple times as the match progresses.

        -I'm really liking how utterly international it is. It seems like in a lot of the countries that participate in this, boxing/kickboxing/mma/full contact stuff isn't nearly as popular as traditional karate; this could be a really good bridge to introduce full contact striking in countries where it wasn't terribly popular before.

        -Most fighters, being used to point sparring, seem pathologically unable to put their hands up. They really need to work on that.

        -I think Bas Rutten has done a decent job of bridging the gap between 'traditional Japanese karate' and 'full contact fight'. If I were to change one rule, it would be to allow kicks to the leg. Kicks seem to be a pretty big part of traditional karate, and the current format limits them to people are who are quite good at them (with most matches developing into a punch-fest). I think allowing kicks to the thigh would create a better distance to the sport (as in, less sizing each other up like in point fighting before shooting in through kicking range to score some punches), and would force the fighters to be a little more aware of things. It also opens it up to styles of karate that are already full contact (Something which Bas Rutten might admittedly be trying to avoid; I think they would have a fairly obvious advantage over the other styles).

        -The heavyweight fighters need to work on their conditioning. It seems they aren't used to the gap in intensity between point sparring and full contact, and lots of them gas hard after round one, leading to some sad/comical matches of two very large men slowly chasing after each other in futility.

        -Looking at the website (which has a full list of their sponsored karateka), it looks like some of these guys might be in their thirties or forties; I like the idea that there's a full contact style one could participate in at those ages, when things like boxing would be perhaps too dangerous.

        -Some of the more entertaining matches are entertaining because of, hilariously, how bad some of them are at striking in this setting. The first match of the Athens tourney, for example, devolves quickly into a glorious and bonkers whirlwind of haymaker nonsense, and in the end, the best haymaker-er triumphs. It's something you'd never see in striking past a certain skill level, honestly.

        -Overall, I hope to see it continue to develop, as there are a lot of things I enjoy about it. I'm curious to hear people's thoughts, now that it's developed a little more, gotten quite a few fighters into the roster, and seems to be developing admirable traction.
        Last edited by Lanner Hunt; 1/30/2019 11:16am, . Reason: Thought of new point

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Lanner Hunt View Post
          Well, this promotion has been going on for a couple of months, and seems to be gaining a fair amount of traction. I'm just gonna post a few links if people are interested in watching some of their more recent tournaments, alongside some thoughts (I literally only came upon this yesterday, and watched their most recent Hollywood tourney).

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeWmqOB1p1k (06/1, Athens)

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8HUjlRV_zA (09/18, New York)

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQQ6cQhuoM&t=8557s (01/19, Hollywood)


          Overall thoughts:
          -First and foremost, excellent sportsmanship. I haven't watched all of the New York or Athens tourneys, but if the Hollywood one is anything to go by, virtually no showboating and a tremendous amount of respect between opponents of almost any nationality. Very cool!

          -Now, obviously, some of these guys aren't as good of strikers as a dedicated muay thai/kickboxer guy. But damn if everyone didn't have some impressive enthusiasm.

          -It's interesting, according to their records on the main website, most all of these guys have only fought in this format once. You can actually tell in some cases; not a few of the matches start with both opponents approaching the timing and distancing as if they were in a point Karate match, and they tend to follow up with single strikes. Eventually, most of them get into the swing of striking multiple times as the match progresses.

          -I'm really liking how utterly international it is. It seems like in a lot of the countries that participate in this, boxing/kickboxing/mma/full contact stuff isn't nearly as popular as traditional karate; this could be a really good bridge to introduce full contact striking in countries where it wasn't terribly popular before.

          -Most fighters, being used to point sparring, seem pathologically unable to put their hands up. They really need to work on that.

          -I think Bas Rutten has done a decent job of bridging the gap between 'traditional Japanese karate' and 'full contact fight'. If I were to change one rule, it would be to allow kicks to the leg. Kicks seem to be a pretty big part of traditional karate, and the current format limits them to people are who are quite good at them (with most matches developing into a punch-fest). I think allowing kicks to the thigh would create a better distance to the sport (as in, less sizing each other up like in point fighting before shooting in through kicking range to score some punches), and would force the fighters to be a little more aware of things. It also opens it up to styles of karate that are already full contact (Something which Bas Rutten might admittedly be trying to avoid; I think they would have a fairly obvious advantage over the other styles).

          -The heavyweight fighters need to work on their conditioning. It seems they aren't used to the gap in intensity between point sparring and full contact, and lots of them gas hard after round one, leading to some sad/comical matches of two very large men slowly chasing after each other in futility.

          -Looking at the website (which has a full list of their sponsored karateka), it looks like some of these guys might be in their thirties or forties; I like the idea that there's a full contact style one could participate in at those ages, when things like boxing would be perhaps too dangerous.

          -Some of the more entertaining matches are entertaining because of, hilariously, how bad some of them are at striking in this setting. The first match of the Athens tourney, for example, devolves quickly into a glorious and bonkers whirlwind of haymaker nonsense, and in the end, the best haymaker-er triumphs. It's something you'd never see in striking past a certain skill level, honestly.

          -Overall, I hope to see it continue to develop, as there are a lot of things I enjoy about it. I'm curious to hear people's thoughts, now that it's developed a little more, gotten quite a few fighters into the roster, and seems to be developing admirable traction.
          Cool, but needs more footsweeps.

          Comment


            #20
            I watched their Hollywood event over the weekend. Was actually pretty close to my house but I had no idea it had happened until it popped up on my YouTube channel a few days after... not that I would have gone anyway, but more promotion might help them a bit is all.

            I could be wrong but my general impression- on top of the already stated almost pathological tendency to keep their hands low- is the overall lack of defense in general.

            Even when their hands are up they never try to parry, or slip to the side, only backwards.

            I’m sure it’s a product of point fighting where landing first is everything... but these guys need to make that adjustment, for their long term facial health!

            Comment


              #21
              And leg kicks, needs more leg kicks...

              Comment


                #22
                Sweep the leg..
                "BJJ!!! Guard can't protect you from collapsing gym roof, tough guy!" - W. Rabbit

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Sovvolf View Post
                  Sweep the leg..
                  But Sensei, I can beat this guy...!

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Lanner Hunt View Post
                    But Sensei, I can beat this guy...!
                    "Bitch this kid is fucking you up Just sweep the God damn leg mother fucker"

                    Sensie Creasey
                    "BJJ!!! Guard can't protect you from collapsing gym roof, tough guy!" - W. Rabbit

                    Comment


                      #25
                      For several years I tried to get the local point-karate guys to do at least continuous light sparring with no resets. Mostly by offering myself as sparring target and trying to get them to keep attacking me without bouncing back after each 2-move combo. It was not successful, mostly because when I DID go on the offensive, none of them could stop anything I threw after the first two moves. They are heavily conditioned to just jump back from the initial attack and jump in with a counterattack, so basically they just drove straight into my continuous blows. Lots of bruising ensued even with me using gloves and not tightening fists but just keeping them loose and light. A guy actually told me he actually panicked when realizing someone could just keep coming in and he could not stop them from doing it, as he could not even slow me down. And I was moving in SLOW, being about 40 pounds overweight and 25+ years older. But they simply have no sense of continuous fighting and absolutely no defense.

                      I began to see various levels of classes at different places and noticed that defense is basically not trained at all and in-out movement is prioritized over it. I tried to have some people do some basic defense drills and their basic karate technique in that was actually awful. Not a single decent nagashi-uke that could block a jab. They were basically unable to block or cover up.
                      Instead they jumped away or ducked so low that I almost took out faces with knees by trying to do mawashi-geri as follow-up. The philosophy seems to be that you should not waste effort in blocks or any defense really when you could be scoring instead. But they also have no head movement and their irimi is completely linear so it was a great effort not to break noses all the time.

                      One of the guys in this new thing was Agayev I seem to recall, one of the more famous point fighter in recent history, and the fight of his that I watched did not give me any hope he could survive a round against even the lowest Bellator beginner.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I saw Agayev’s karate Combat fight. Yeah not the greatest, but at least he kept his hand up!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by ksennin View Post
                          For several years I tried to get the local point-karate guys to do at least continuous light sparring with no resets. Mostly by offering myself as sparring target and trying to get them to keep attacking me without bouncing back after each 2-move combo. It was not successful, mostly because when I DID go on the offensive, none of them could stop anything I threw after the first two moves. They are heavily conditioned to just jump back from the initial attack and jump in with a counterattack, so basically they just drove straight into my continuous blows. Lots of bruising ensued even with me using gloves and not tightening fists but just keeping them loose and light. A guy actually told me he actually panicked when realizing someone could just keep coming in and he could not stop them from doing it, as he could not even slow me down. And I was moving in SLOW, being about 40 pounds overweight and 25+ years older. But they simply have no sense of continuous fighting and absolutely no defense.

                          I began to see various levels of classes at different places and noticed that defense is basically not trained at all and in-out movement is prioritized over it. I tried to have some people do some basic defense drills and their basic karate technique in that was actually awful. Not a single decent nagashi-uke that could block a jab. They were basically unable to block or cover up.
                          Instead they jumped away or ducked so low that I almost took out faces with knees by trying to do mawashi-geri as follow-up. The philosophy seems to be that you should not waste effort in blocks or any defense really when you could be scoring instead. But they also have no head movement and their irimi is completely linear so it was a great effort not to break noses all the time.

                          One of the guys in this new thing was Agayev I seem to recall, one of the more famous point fighter in recent history, and the fight of his that I watched did not give me any hope he could survive a round against even the lowest Bellator beginner.
                          Point Karate really is a sight to behold. I had a ad come up on Facebook for some point karate champion or something of the sort. I can't remember the fellows name but judging by the comments he's all the rage. It was an highlight video of his fights and all he was doing was jumping in throwing a couple sloppy punches then panic jumps out of the way and congratulations himself. The Facebook comments: "Fearless"... if that's fearless I'd hate to see what isn't.
                          .

                          It looks like a glorified game of tag.

                          I full on believe you when you say that the point karate guys you sparred cracked under the slightest bit of pressure.
                          "BJJ!!! Guard can't protect you from collapsing gym roof, tough guy!" - W. Rabbit

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by BJMills View Post
                            I saw Agayev’s karate Combat fight. Yeah not the greatest, but at least he kept his hand up!
                            The other guy certainly looked far more useless.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Sovvolf View Post
                              Point Karate really is a sight to behold. I had a ad come up on Facebook for some point karate champion or something of the sort. I can't remember the fellows name but judging by the comments he's all the rage. It was an highlight video of his fights and all he was doing was jumping in throwing a couple sloppy punches then panic jumps out of the way and congratulations himself. The Facebook comments: "Fearless"... if that's fearless I'd hate to see what isn't.
                              It looks like a glorified game of tag.
                              I full on believe you when you say that the point karate guys you sparred cracked under the slightest bit of pressure.
                              Some point karate at least looks like they try to adhere to some kind of aesthetic idealized depiction of form. It is not real fighting but you can kinda see the point. A lot of point karate however is absolutely ridiculous.

                              I grew up with point karate as the basic model for sparring, but all the training was not devoted to its specific ruleset. You got looser continuous sparring almost as frequently, because who wants to tie up time with judges and scoring all the time? And we did self-defense drills and drills training moves that were not in the point ruleset but had to be known since they were part of karate and they should not be lost. It was not great combat training but at least one had a kind of basic physical foundation if one wanted to branch into more realistic rulesets like kickboxing. Nowadays I think the presence of MMA has actually made karate even more limited as they seem to have made a conscious decision to move away from what they perceived as being done better by the MMA-related gyms and not wanting to have any overlap lest they be made to look bad. And the honest ones probably acknowledge it as so, by emphasizing it as a sport based upon old fighting systems and nothing more, or an stylized form of motion-art/fitness-discipline, which is ok by me, and probably even necessary for most people who would never become good fighters no matter what.

                              And the pressure thing was in spite that I was pretty mediocre at best. I can imagine people sh*tting their pants having to fight someone like Omega, here. Sure, it would be even more devastating to be taken down by a good grappler and experience the utter helplessness that is to be dominated on the ground without effort when you have no training on it. But getting a wake up call on your feet, at the striking range you are supposed to be training, is less likely to be dismissed as something just outside of "what they do"

                              Back in the mid-80s, we cross-sparred a lot with a line of CMA practitioners who did lots of hard sparring, and we all were the better for it. I don't think I could name more than one or two current local practitioners of karate now that could stand ground before one of those CMA-guys of my time. And some years ago that actually came to head, when the son of one of those CMA guys came to a friend's school to do a dojo challenge and beat the crap out of everyone there. I happened to visit there that same day, and it was fat old me who managed to spar and not get destroyed, even taking him down and getting a rear naked choke onto him. But people looked at us like we had come over from some other planet or sumthin'.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I can relate to some of that. There's a Thai Boxing/MMA gym I used to go to a few years ago run by one of my friends. They also taught Karate that was for a point system (It was the style my friend at grown up with before making the transition). Though despite the point format of the competition, they sparred daily and it was full contact. Probably the closest you're going to get to Kyokushin training in my area.

                                This was gym specific and a lot of the local gyms of the same style (Shindokai) were purely kata based gyms, which got a few laughs when the black belts from the other gyms would try getting a bit of time over at that gym to prep for competitions. Which lead to some one as unskilled and uncoordinated as myself who was still a white belt just curb stomping black belts.

                                I think that kind of approach to karate likely came from the other full contact styles taught there. Think the owner and his assistant had a difficult time shaking that attitude towards sparring even on a semi contact system.

                                There's nothing wrong with a system that is honest though and I can't hold anything against a gym if they're up front with what they're selling.
                                "BJJ!!! Guard can't protect you from collapsing gym roof, tough guy!" - W. Rabbit

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