Cardio beats a RNC

[Michael Tzadok]

Was the armlock similar to the one in this video at approx 1.00?

If so, I can testify that if done correctly it's quite painful. We have it in this kata of Nippon Kempo and two of my instructors can do it in a very painful way (something that I don't like so much when I'm used as a dummy for the demonstration). However I can't do it half as effectively. I think it's quite difficult to do because tori doesn't have a very advantageous grip on uke.
So I suspect the aikido guy was simply not very good at it, but since he is used to ukes that are very compliant he didn't realize it.

Nope. See the very first technique in the video I posted above. I'm familiar with the armlock you are talking about, it is in TKD(or at least the TKD I learned) and it is in SAMBO. Same principles with slightly different body position, I've learned it in BJJ too. However, the guy wasn't pulling with either arm, just pushing. So he clearly didn't understand the principles of making a fulcrum on the elbow.

[BKR]

The thing about that sort of shit is that, like standing locks off the grips in judo, you have to put it on fast and hard, most likely injuring your partner in the process. The aikido way of stretching out the guy gently to the ground is only going to work on untrained people.

That would be my experience as well, in a nutshell. And even on untrained people, a strong, pissed off person is not easy to deal with if they are determined to fight.

[Michael Tzadok]

I always thought that if uke was generally unaware that the technique was coming and was committed going forward, if tori stretched him out hard and fast he might make it work.

That I could see. I learned couple similar things in SAMBO. They are attacks of opportunity though that require really good timing to go along with it. Just starting with crossed arms doesn't really work. It also ignores the realities of how striking typically works in a fight. Most martial arts do though.

[BKR]

That would dissuade me from my cyanide tooth plan. Would actually make the Aikido part enjoyable. I would in fact love that. However, thus is probably not to be the case.



Here is what they were doing(not the actual Aikidokas from the class but the same BS):

I really for the life of me can't understand how this is supposed to work in any possible way. I guess we all get to have our own little delusions. It certainly isn't going to immobilize anyone intent on getting up.

Thanks for the clarification video. That is about what I was imagining.

I'm not sure exactly what the purpose of that is in the aikido curriculum. It's one of their most basic technique sequences, though. Striking the "shomen". It's so stylized though, in terms of striking. Harmonizing with the universe does not necessarily involve realistic applications.

[NeilG]

I think it's one of the ones that is based on defence against a sword attack, where a big committed swing to the top of the head would actually be a thing.

[BKR]

Nope. See the very first technique in the video I posted above. I'm familiar with the armlock you are talking about, it is in TKD(or at least the TKD I learned) and it is in SAMBO. Same principles with slightly different body position, I've learned it in BJJ too. However, the guy wasn't pulling with either arm, just pushing. So he clearly didn't understand the principles of making a fulcrum on the elbow.

Similar stuff known as "straight armbar takedown" are taught to cops/security guards, with variations combining figure-four of various types. I'm sure you are familiar with them.

Personally, I find that most guys keep their arms bent, and are loath to let you straighten them out. So even if you start with a sort of straight arm, as soon as you try to straighten it out, they bend it.

Action reaction...

[BKR]

That I could see. I learned couple similar things in SAMBO. They are attacks of opportunity though that require really good timing to go along with it. Just starting with crossed arms doesn't really work. It also ignores the realities of how striking typically works in a fight. Most martial arts do though.

I think what happens is that they train the lock in isolation (aikidoka), in set-piece scenarios, in order to get good at the lock itself. And never really advance beyond that.

Blending isolation training with whole-sequence training is part of the art/science of coaching/teaching. Deal with it in Judo class all the time.

[BKR]

I think it's one of the ones that is based on defence against a sword attack, where a big committed swing to the top of the head would actually be a thing.

Right, I am pretty sure most of the stuff in aikido is based on a guy wanting to hold onto his weapon at all costs. There was a thread here a long time ago about that...

[Michael Tzadok]

So after the Aikido I got some more Kyokushin. That was OK. Typical basic Karate stuff. Reliving my youth with less flexibility.

Then we had some Muy Tai guys who also were busy with Euro chapmionships at the end of last course so they are now joining ours. That was really great stuff. How to do low kicks, which I found was pretty much the way I learned it in Combat Sambo. Then how to defend low kicks, so that you don't take as much damage. That was pure gold in a good way. One of the guys claimed that he was the Euro and Tai champion in his category. I'm not going to bother with trying to hunt that up to see if it is true. I'm going to take it on good will that it is. His instruction was great.

After that was Kung Fu. Meh. After Aikido the Wing Chun and 5 Animal Kung Fu looked down right deadly.

After that was some interesting KM BS. This idea that if you aren't paying attention and your hands are at your sides, holding your phone texting or reading a book, you can block a sucker punch to the face. Yeah that was utter nonsense.

When someone asked which part of the fist or foot to punch or kick with, he said it doesn't matter. That stirred up a beehive among the strikers. GBA stepped in here and explained the philosophy governing Israeli KM. Namely that they don't care if they break their hand or their foot, rather to end the immediate threat. I found that an interesting contrast to the US MACP program which emphasizes using strikes that will enable the soldier to remain combat ready. I guess that is benefit of having over a million reservists that are never more than 3 hours from the fight, you don't need to worry about a soldier going down with an injury.

[DCS]

That would dissuade me from my cyanide tooth plan. Would actually make the Aikido part enjoyable. I would in fact love that. However, thus is probably not to be the case.

Here is what they were doing(not the actual Aikidokas from the class but the same BS):

I really for the life of me can't understand how this is supposed to work in any possible way. I guess we all get to have our own little delusions. It certainly isn't going to immobilize anyone intent on getting up.

LOL. I'm a black belt in this exact Aikido lineage. What is being performed in that clip are not techniques but exercises. Choking that guy was the right thing to do.

[Michael Tzadok]

LOL. I'm a black belt in this exact Aikido lineage. What is being performed in that clip are not techniques but exercises. Choking that guy was the right thing to do.

I just hunted around YouTube searching for basic Aikido techniques. I know nothing about lineages or what is good or not Aikido other than the Aikido guys that I've worked with in this course are all teaching useless stuff and rabidly defending one another. If it is just an exercise or drill, I'm cool with that. There is a lot of seemingly useless things that teach base movements that are later incorporated into techniques in wresting and to a lesser extent BJJ, so I get that. That certainly wasn't how it was presented.

[scipio]

I think what happens is that they train the lock in isolation (aikidoka), in set-piece scenarios, in order to get good at the lock itself. And never really advance beyond that.

Blending isolation training with whole-sequence training is part of the art/science of coaching/teaching. Deal with it in Judo class all the time.

That is pretty much it, you essentially train to put the lock on (or an approximation of it). When coupled with completely compliant partners - this is what happens. The guy was surprised as the people he trains he tap even if the technique is effective or not.

[ermghoti]

Depends on what he does at the exam. These practice sessions are so that you can get feed back. How you take that on board will determine how you do on the exam.

Thanks for reminding me that I'm going to have to go through several more hours of Aikido. I'm going to go get fitted for a cyanide tooth now.

Cyanide Tooth is my next band name.

[swashbuckler]

This whole thread is hilarious and totally makes me want to take up bjj. I can totally picture the ninjas from the BBD club I went to years ago when you describe GN and JKN. To be honest before I visited this site I didn’t know aikido was so, well, crap, but you’ve given a very clear picture of why it should be avoided.

[Dr. Gonzo]

That would dissuade me from my cyanide tooth plan. Would actually make the Aikido part enjoyable. I would in fact love that. However, thus is probably not to be the case.



Here is what they were doing(not the actual Aikidokas from the class but the same BS):

I really for the life of me can't understand how this is supposed to work in any possible way. I guess we all get to have our own little delusions. It certainly isn't going to immobilize anyone intent on getting up.

These exercises can teach the same things we teach in other ways.
Entering, jamming, etc.
It's a slower way to train.
And, when done fast, these techniques can break a joint or break someone down, if they are done correctly.
But...if all one trains is the slow, compliant style, one might be in for a nasty surprise when one encounters someone athletic, violent, and/or that has trained in non-compliant styles.
I am not Aikidoka.
But, I have seen a lot of things happen and get applied in rolling, and it is always the model you ignore that can end up surprising you if someone well trained in your model takes you down a rabbit hole you did not see coming.