Cardio beats a RNC

[Michael Tzadok]

MT: "Here's how to do a thing that actually works.

JKN: That will not work.

MT: OK, I'll do it, you show me how you will make it not work.

[ambulance siren]

Nah... I'll just choke him out real well using an RNC Judo Gene style, where you count backward from 20 and then let go. Let him blow bubbles and spasm a bit.

If he tries to poke my eyes I'll just pull that triangle tighter. I've had people do that twice in wrestling when I was pinning them and new spazzes a good 5 times in BJJ it worked to get me off the guy in wrestling once. The second time I held out for the pin and had a lazy eye for two weeks after. So it doesn't scare me. I'll just make him pay for it.

[lant3rn]

See if you can get their parents to revoke their moose riding privileges for poor practice performances?

That's a national right up here, would be considered child abuse.

[Michael Tzadok]

Funny as hell, I was thinking the same thing. Like, Michael tells Ninjer or aikidoka to take some fancy kamae (combative posture), then does the standing spin entry to RNC.

Of course, the urge to double leg will be strong and must be resisted...

Here, these guys are even Israeli, I think.

Yeah, I'm not going to mess with an Akban guy. If a dude has a black belt form Akban he is a legit fighter, I don't care if he plays with throwing stars and and other funny things. Let me explain. The head guy of Akban was like pre-Hayes Buj/Togakure whatever they called themselves back then, and claims that you had to seriously be able to fight... until that is Hayes came along and made a money making machine out of it and it all went McDojo, which he claims is why they broke away. Now that alone probably won't convince you. But if you ever read a Hayes book, or a Hatsumi book(come on I know most of you did) about Ninja being adaptable and taking what works... Well these guys took all that to heart. They seriously cross train in Judo, BJJ and Muy Tai. It takes something like 12-15 years to get a black belt there.

Again, to this point probably still not completely impressive. Here is the real kicker, a lot of their black belts compete on the local amateur and professional MMA circuit, and win more than they lose. So, if they play with smoke bombs, shurkien and grappling hooks to spice things up, who am I to argue, they can and do regularly step into a polygonal ring and throw down. One of my guiding principles in life is to not talk trash on people who get paid to fight MMA.

[BKR]

Yeah, I'm not going to mess with an Akban guy. If a dude has a black belt form Akban he is a legit fighter, I don't care if he plays with throwing stars and and other funny things. Let me explain. The head guy of Akban was like pre-Hayes Buj/Togakure whatever they called themselves back then, and claims that you had to seriously be able to fight... until that is Hayes came along and made a money making machine out of it and it all went McDojo, which he claims is why they broke away. Now that alone probably won't convince you. But if you ever read a Hayes book, or a Hatsumi book(come on I know most of you did) about Ninja being adaptable and taking what works... Well these guys took all that to heart. They seriously cross train in Judo, BJJ and Muy Tai. It takes something like 12-15 years to get a black belt there.

Again, to this point probably still not completely impressive. Here is the real kicker, a lot of their black belts compete on the local amateur and professional MMA circuit, and win more than they lose. So, if they play with smoke bombs, shurkien and grappling hooks to spice things up, who am I to argue, they can and do regularly step into a polygonal ring and throw down. One of my guiding principles in life is to not talk trash on people who get paid to fight MMA.

Interesting, I think there's a threat somewhere here about akban.
Remember watching some of their videos where they were training and I'm like those guys know Judo or sombo they're not dicking around all the time.

[Michael Tzadok]

Interesting, I think there's a threat somewhere here about akban.
Remember watching some of their videos where they were training and I'm like those guys know Judo or sombo they're not dicking around all the time.

Yeah if someone really had their heart set on learning Ninjutsu that would be where I would send them. They have live grappling sparring. Live striking sparring. Live MMA sparring. Somehow they fit all that into the Ninja thing. I don't want to misquote anybody, but I've heard from some Akban guys that on the original rolls of black belts in whatever Hatsumi teaches, up until 1983 Hayes wasn't listed. Then when it become commercially viable suddenly he was a black belt. Then a slew of others soon followed. I mean I hate the whole "real Buj" thing, but that is there story. Like I said I don't argue with people who have professional MMA records with more wins than losses.

[BKR]

Yeah if someone really had their heart set on learning Ninjutsu that would be where I would send them. They have live grappling sparring. Live striking sparring. Live MMA sparring. Somehow they fit all that into the Ninja thing. I don't want to misquote anybody, but I've heard from some Akban guys that on the original rolls of black belts in whatever Hatsumi teaches, up until 1983 Hayes wasn't listed. Then when it become commercially viable suddenly he was a black belt. Then a slew of others soon followed. I mean I hate the whole "real Buj" thing, but that is there story. Like I said I don't argue with people who have professional MMA records with more wins than losses.

I agree with no argue with guys like that. If they want to call in ninjutsu, more power to them.

Hatsumi is pretty much a recognized..well, fraud might be too strong a term.

I confess to having a copy of Hayes's original book around somewhere. His story on his intro to it was interesting. I read it back in the late 70s. Started Judo in June 1980, so I soon got a dose of reality. Especially watching my coach combine shorinryu karate with Judo with his karate sensei. Let's just say karate sensei went flying a lot, and the guy was no kata weenie, either.

I think that basically a good grappler needs to know how and practice enough to have reflexes to avoid getting punched/kicked/elbowed/kneed, not be anything more than mediocre at striking at best.

When I was running the judo program at Tulane, I did some okinawan karate and TKD. I had to get the reflexes down for getting punched/kicked, once I had that, closing the gap was not too hard. Now, the black belt TKD guy was amazing, and he could catch me with kicks (dude was super fast, super flexible, and not a skinny wimp) from crazy angles.

anyway, enough stupid anecdotes.

Looking forward to your next installment...

[Kravbizarre]

Nah... I'll just choke him out real well using an RNC Judo Gene style, where you count backward from 20 and then let go. Let him blow bubbles and spasm a bit.

If he tries to poke my eyes I'll just pull that triangle tighter. I've had people do that twice in wrestling when I was pinning them and new spazzes a good 5 times in BJJ it worked to get me off the guy in wrestling once. The second time I held out for the pin and had a lazy eye for two weeks after. So it doesn't scare me. I'll just make him pay for it.

Do what you like but last time gene choked an aikidoka like that they shit themselves. Maybe get some plastic sheeting and wear boots.

[Michael Tzadok]

Do what you like but last time gene choked an aikidoka like that they shit themselves. Maybe get some plastic sheeting and wear boots.

Well the way we typically start teaching RNC is with the UKE sitting. So if he messes himself... Well hopefully I'll smell it before it leaks through. Though maybe I'll take an extra gi along just in case.

[Michael Tzadok]

On my way to administer some cardio fitness exams. Will update as I have the opportunity.

[Michael Tzadok]

GN thinks my finger tape is funny. I think his hat knife thingy is funny.

[Michael Tzadok]

OMFG JKN just came in in his ninja get up. It is a black Judo gi, that has been washed in bleach water to brown it out in places. It also has karate style ties seen in. He has with him a small arsenal of weapons.

[Michael Tzadok]

Ok so today started with GBA giving us all a very active hour and a half Kyokushin lesson to both show us how it is done and also with a couple of mistakes he wanted us to register. I'm still worn out and sore from my kettlenells and BJJ yesterday so that was just painful, though fun.

We then got started with student lead lessons. The first guy to go was an Aikido guy. Yeah that was just a confusing. Lots of bowing and walking in circles. I'll just say that HM's videos on Aikido are overly generous and clearly HM either has no Aikido experience or he has a crush on Steven Segall and is hoping to arrange a hook up via his complimentary videos. Because I know(now after seeing her and some others laughing over this thread on break) that she will read this, I will say that the one exception was the lady who learned Judo and Aikido in Japan. Though I suspect her skill comes from her Judo and her Aikido is just complimentary.

There were some karate guys that went next. Lots of front snap kicks, reverse punches and other basic karate stuff. Followed by a JJJ guy. He didn't get to finish his turn. GBA shut him down because his instruction was so horrendous that GBA was genuinely afraid someone was going to get hurt.

Then it was my turn. GBA gave me these instructions:

Teach like this is their very first class and none of them have any clue about BJJ. Show them how to enter De La Riva and then escape from it.

To me those instructions were self contradictory, we don't teach De La Riva at my club until people hit blue belt. So I plowed ahead with my original plan, and taught RNC. I show it and explain it on one guy. He taps before I even get it fully locked up. So I had to really loosen my arms to show the breathing and shrug bit. Then I trade out demonstration partners he also taps quick.

There is a KM guy there who is convinced that his three years of IDF conscript service in a commando unit makes him equal to a Delta Force Operator. So we'll call him Delta Force Wannabe(DFW). Now DFW is in really good shape, as he runs a prep program for soldiers. He has also bought into the whole Cardio beats RNC trope, so he claims that it won't really work.
So I look at GBA, GBA shrugs, so I offer DFW the chance to resist. I have him hold one hand in the air, and tell him I'll concede defeat at 15 seconds. He grins at me. JKN eagerly offers to be time keeper. I pop the choke in, wait for him to tap, his arm falls limp to the floor, JKN shouts the Hebrew equivalent of

Holy shit that was only 4 seconds.

. DFW comes to and is a little disoriented. He doesn't understand exactly what happened. Another army KM guy says

Brother you took an unplanned nap

So I break them into partner groups, and have them work on the choke. JKN is the only ninja that is willing to do it. A couple of Karate people also refuse. I get dinged for the refusals for some reason.

After I get through correcting the last couple, GBA calls a halt. He dings me for not teaching what he told me to, and asks why I didn't and I explain. He says that BJJ submissions are, in his opinion, are too dangerous to be taught to beginners, so I should have gone with something as similar as possible. He didn't like that I didn't make the people who didn't want to do it either do it or leave the room. Finally I got dinged for making sure that everyone was doing it correctly, they'll learn over time.

JKN went after me. He taught how, when someone shoves you, you can redirect their push, get behind them and break their neck. No, I'm not joking, that is the response he taught to getting shoved. When someone asked him where the leverage would come from to reliably break the neck, he changed it up to the RNC that I taught.

Yeah let's switch it to that awesome BJJ choke we learned.

.
I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not.

[NeilG]

I'd agree with GBA, a choke is not the thing I'd teach as an introductory lesson. Of course I'm judo not BJJ, maybe you guys have a different approach to such things.

[Michael Tzadok]

I'd agree with GBA, a choke is not the thing I'd teach as an introductory lesson. Of course I'm judo not BJJ, maybe you guys have a different approach to such things.

He wasn't just against the choke, he was against all submissions, which, taken away doesn't leave a lot of easily teachable things in BJJ/GJJ.

In Relson and Rorion break down of GJJ combatives the syllabus typically goes:
1) Trap and Roll escape from mount
2) Americana Armlock
3) Positional control mount
4) Back take
5) Rear Naked Choke.

I come from a Carlson Gracie lineage and we typically teach them like this:
1) RNC
2) Americana
3) Mount
4) Back take from mount
5) Trap and Roll escape

Any escape you are going to do from mount, side control, or god forbid back mount, requires a fair few basic concepts of movement(bridges, hip escapes ect). Sure I know a fair few ways to get out of a De La Riva, but like I said we don't start teaching that until Blue Belt, so that is assuming that a person already has a really firm foundation in BJJ before getting to it. Now after watching some of the people he liked, I figured out that he didn't really care if we even got to what he wanted us to teach, as long as we were teaching at least the building blocks for what he wanted.

I probably wouldn't have gotten dinged as much, if I decided to teach a basic guard escape or mount escape, at least then when asked when I didn't teach De La Riva and it's escape, I could say that it(De La Riva) is silly advanced, so I taught something similar that was more basic.

GBA also really wants us to have a very rigid syllabus and order in which everything is taught, which would work if you do belt tests every month and make new people just come and watch until you are ready to start to recycle the basic white belt curriculum. That just seems like an overly silly expectation for most clubs, or a fast road to burn out for an instructor.

[ermghoti]

He dings me for not teaching what he told me to, and asks why I didn't and I explain. He says that BJJ submissions are, in his opinion, are too dangerous to be taught to beginners, so I should have gone with something as similar as possible. He didn't like that I didn't make the people who didn't want to do it either do it or leave the room. Finally I got dinged for making sure that everyone was doing it correctly, they'll learn over time.

Given the parameters of the exercise, the submission thing is kind of right, although the literal first things you're showing a BJJ class are probably bridging, shrimping, and maybe seated rearward breakfalls or something, which would be quite dull. The other points are pretty stupid, IMO.