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    #76
    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    It should tell you something that Systema was allegedly created in Russia where they have some the finest wrestling in the world, and they have excellent Sambo, and they have excellent Judo, and they have tough strikers.
    I've written enough times, and there is enough evidence to demonstrate that this simply isn't true. At least not in the way that the V/R Systema people claim. Nowhere near the way they claim. The original, documented(if I have to I can hunt up and put the Russian documentary here yet again) "Systema" that was developed for the USSR, was to Combat Sambo what Gracie Combatives is to Gracie Jiu Jitsu. A stripped down base of the martial art to teach to soldiers quickly and efficiently so that they had something that more or less worked, while they underwent the slow development of the full martial art.

    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    And it should tell you something that Aikido / Aiki-Jitsu and not Judo was chosen by the Japanese high command for officer hand to hand training going into World War II.
    I would have to see documentary evidence of this. I was fairly certain that Aikido was still in development when the Japanese entered World War 2. As far as Aiki-Jujutsu, going off Wiki:
    Aiki-jūjutsu
    Aiki-jūjutsu can be broken into three styles: jujutsu (hard); aiki no jutsu (soft); and the combined aikijujutsu (hard/soft). Modern Japanese jujutsu and aikido both originated in aikijujutsu, which emphasizes "an early neutralization of an attack".[7] Like other forms of jujutsu, it emphasizes throwing techniques and joint manipulations to effectively subdue or injure an attacker. Of particular importance is the timing of a defensive technique either to blend or to neutralize an attack's effectiveness and to use the force of the attacker's movement against him. Daitō-ryū is characterized by ample use of atemi, or the striking of vital areas, to set up jointlocking or throwing tactics.

    Some of the art's striking methods employ the swinging of the outstretched arms to create power and to hit with the fists at deceptive angles, as may be observed in techniques such as the atemi that sets up gyaku ude-dori (reverse elbow lock). Tokimune Takeda regarded one of the unique characteristics of the art to be its preference for controlling a downed attacker's joints with one's knee to leave one's hands free to access weapons or to deal with the threat of other attackers.[8]
    Considering what was available at the time, this doesn't sound that bad.

    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    And even now, we have people on this forum who argue against firearms training as the most effective self-defense martial art to train.
    Funny because I know lots of guys who train civilians in the use of firearms for self-defense that would say that you need firearms and something else for lots of very valid reasons. Many of them also have LEO experience to back up their claims that just firearms skills are not enough. So that seems to be more a matter of opinion and personal prioritization.


    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    People who get into real fighting sports do so because they are battling their demons.

    And people who stay in fighting sports day and day, decade after decade, are weirdos.

    I could of learned how to play golf, play music, and ballroom dance.

    Instead I had someone sweat into my mouth the other day while I was demonstrating a move.

    Don't accuse people who choose to do what we do as much as we do it of being rational, good decision makers.
    The rest of this mostly just opinion, which you are welcome to, but that is all it is.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
      I've written enough times, and there is enough evidence to demonstrate that this simply isn't true. At least not in the way that the V/R Systema people claim. Nowhere near the way they claim. The original, documented(if I have to I can hunt up and put the Russian documentary here yet again) "Systema" that was developed for the USSR, was to Combat Sambo what Gracie Combatives is to Gracie Jiu Jitsu. A stripped down base of the martial art to teach to soldiers quickly and efficiently so that they had something that more or less worked, while they underwent the slow development of the full martial art.


      I would have to see documentary evidence of this. I was fairly certain that Aikido was still in development when the Japanese entered World War 2. As far as Aiki-Jujutsu, going off Wiki:

      Considering what was available at the time, this doesn't sound that bad.


      Funny because I know lots of guys who train civilians in the use of firearms for self-defense that would say that you need firearms and something else for lots of very valid reasons. Many of them also have LEO experience to back up their claims that just firearms skills are not enough. So that seems to be more a matter of opinion and personal prioritization.




      The rest of this mostly just opinion, which you are welcome to, but that is all it is.
      I was not claiming that Systema particularly benefited or not from the Russian Wrestling, Sambo, and Judo.
      (although there was some techniques in that little Systema clip that looked like the basic armlock etc).
      I was pointing out that despite the presence of that excellent Wrestling, Sambo, and Judo, people in Russia still also have appetite for woo.
      The human appetite for woo is insatiable.
      Regarding the Aikido training for the Japanese officers prior to World War II, do your research, then.
      It sounds like you are in for a surprise when you do.
      Even Kano allegedly said after viewing an Aikido demonstration, "this is my ideal budo".
      Again, the human appetite for woo is insatiable.

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
        "Systema" that was developed for the USSR, was to Combat Sambo what Gracie Combatives is to Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
        Also, I suspect you insult Sambo and the Gracie Combatives when you say this...

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by GrouchyOldMan View Post
          Quoted because it bears repeating!

          If there is one common thing I have found with these types of videos, it is that they generally have no clue how to properly execute the techniques they are showing how to defend against.
          "Here in this demo my number one Aikido student will be using boxing and I will show you how to defeat it"

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
            Also, I suspect you insult Sambo and the Gracie Combatives when you say this...
            Considering that A.I. Retuinskih(Sambo and Judo MoS at the time) received a Honored-Merited Master of Sport from the Russian Sambo Federation, and Honored Coach of Russia from the Russian Olympic Committee for his work in creating documented version of Systema, and that it has been universally accepted in the Combat Sambo world as the core self-defense curriculum, I'm pretty sure that I don't. Truth of the matter is I can give you the names of several recognized Combat Sambo masters of sport who, if pressed, would tell you that "Systema" as they know it is just the base self defense portion of Combat Sambo. Most just stay away from using the term, or even teaching dedicated classes in it because you get a bunch of V/R Systema nutters showing up and ruining class.

            The only reason that anyone in North America thinks differently is because Vasiliev was a great marketer and operated for the better part of a decade before anyone who really knew any better even started to figure out what was going on. Then at first they really didn't know if he actually was semi-legit until Retuinskih had a cow over Vasiliev stealing his manual.
            Last edited by Michael Tzadok; 4/22/2018 9:19pm, .

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              #81
              Tzadok, you appear to know a lot about Systema-drama. Where did you learn this?

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by Shawarma View Post
                Tzadok, you appear to know a lot about Systema-drama. Where did you learn this?
                I was involved with ROSS from 96 until -04. At which point I transitioned to Kadochnikov when the ROSS drama happened, and gave VR Systema an honest look in '06.
                Essentially I lived through it as a first person witness.

                Comment


                  #83
                  I'm....so sorry...

                  Do you need a hug?

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                    Regarding the Aikido training for the Japanese officers prior to World War II, do your research, then.
                    It sounds like you are in for a surprise when you do.
                    Even Kano allegedly said after viewing an Aikido demonstration, "this is my ideal budo".
                    Again, the human appetite for woo is insatiable.
                    It's a bit more complicated than that and not for this thread.

                    Anyway, there has been and still are people who find value in good Aikido, some of them accomplished martial artists. If this is because the "human appetite for woo" or not... I think it's a case by case basis.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Shawarma View Post
                      I'm....so sorry...

                      Do you need a hug?
                      Honestly the ROSS stuff was great training. It has served me well even into BJJ. The Kadochnikov stuff was interesting, but his organization was imploding at the time. I always wanted to put my own eyes on Systema, and can now honestly say that I have seen their best. It all got me back in touch with an old friend from ROSS and the founder of Pramek which I liked. So by and large it was a worthwhile journey. I was already a high level wrestler, the Sambo was fun, and I had done American Kickboxing, so I was more looking to have fun and look at combative strategy as much as effective martial art. Frankly I still believe the combat sambo I learned in ROSS is an effective martial art. It was a crazy time that is for sure, but that is what the University years are for.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by DCS View Post
                        It's a bit more complicated than that
                        Most things are.

                        Originally posted by DCS View Post
                        Anyway, there has been and still are people who find value in good Aikido, some of them accomplished martial artists. If this is because the "human appetite for woo" or not... I think it's a case by case basis.
                        Of course it's on a case by case basis.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Originally posted by BKR View Post
                          Like aikido?
                          Aikido being a prime example.

                          Honorable mention to Wally Jay's small circle Jiu-Jitsu when it was co-promoted with whatever George Dillman calls what he was doing.

                          People stay in combat sports long enough, get hit in the head enough, take enough pain medications or booze to manage their chronic pain long enough, and they eventually become Jeff Bridges', George Clooney's, or Kevin Spacey's character from the Men Who Start At Goats.

                          I'm going to write a book called the People Who Shake, the stories of Washed up Fighters, Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Cripples, Con Men, and broke people, detailing the real stories of 50 great martial arts teachers / ex-fighters as they reached the end of their natural life cycles.

                          Now if you will excuse me, I am going to get my dog to initiate her morning poop by using Sparkly Eyes Technique.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by DCS View Post
                            It's a bit more complicated than that and not for this thread.

                            Anyway, there has been and still are people who find value in good Aikido, some of them accomplished martial artists. If this is because the "human appetite for woo" or not... I think it's a case by case basis.
                            No No No, you need to paint with a broad brush and generalize.

                            Of course it's not all woo, there is real mechanical stuff to learn from Aikido.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by BKR View Post
                              No No No, you need to paint with a broad brush and generalize.

                              Of course it's not all woo, there is real mechanical stuff to learn from Aikido.
                              Oh, I forgot.

                              Aikido is for pussies.

                              Back on topic. Has the rabbi suplexed the fake judoka yet?

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by DCS View Post
                                Oh, I forgot.Aikido is for pussies.Back on topic. Has the rabbi suplexed the fake judoka yet?
                                You are such a meshuggeneh. You don't suplex Judokas. You throw them with ura nage.

                                Comment

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