What's Wrong with Tai Chi?

[Holy Moment]

Close quarters, forward moving, aggressive opponents are what these two martial arts specialize in but that is also what they require.

They're not good at it, though.

[TheAngryOrange]

I have a recollection of there being several examples of tai-chi schools consistently producing competent wrestlers and kickboxers. The 'full contact kung fu' thread has a few.
I'm surprised I haven't seen them brought up in the discussions surrounding this event. Also, wasn't yang-style largely spread through challenge matches (well prior to being adopted and modified turned 'long form' by the chinese government.

I mean, obviosuly tai chi has no fighting application as practiced by the vast majority of people, but I get the impression that what is practiced by the majority of people is somewhat of a mis-characterization of tai chi. I've seen a few demonstrations of tai chi applications that were pretty similar to well-known wrestling techniques.

this post is a little all over the place, sorry, I just wanted to remind people of this, see how it influences the discussion.

People view martial arts as a set of tools. If one is not working, it is useless. If one outperforms the other, it must be better. But martial arts is a pool, a skill pool. Different arts take different things from that pool for different reasons, each one modified for their own purposes and utilized based on what rules do and do not exist. Tai-chi (and aikido for that matter) take from a very small section of that pool. Close quarters, forward moving, aggressive opponents are what these two martial arts specialize in but that is also what they require. If the other person is not being a committed aggressor, then Tai-chi and aikido practitioners have nothing to do. Other grappling arts like wrestling, judo, and bjj cover the exact same facet and much more. That's why the the former always melt under pressure. They need very specific situations to work and the latter martial arts cover what to do in the same situations as well as many more. These two martial arts work well as a way to reinforce or strengthen existing skills. Much like how when i went into MMA I had a boxing coach improve my hand game, these two martial arts should be used to improve your usage of your opponents movement and momentum (and the skilled grapplers you talked about do that). But on its own, it doesn't cover enough to be effective.

(Of course I say all this assuming you are going to a descent tai-chi school and not one of those ones with an instructor who says he can knock you out by flicking you or throwing chi balls at you)

[Pship Destroyer]

I read somewhere Tai Chi wasn't necessarily that good if you have arthritis...I need time to find the study, but stand by.

Still can't find it, but I found these.

Efficacy of Tai Chi on Pain, Stiffness and Function in Patients with Osteoarthritis: A Meta-Analysis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3631149/

Tai chi may be as good as physical therapy for arthritis-related knee pain
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/t...n-201606159780

Exploring Tai Chi in rheumatoid arthritis: a quantitative and qualitative study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2845097/

Conclusions

Improved muscle function in lower limbs was also reflected when patient experiences with Tai Chi were studied in depth in this explorative study. The combination of qualitative and quantitative research methods shows that Tai Chi has beneficial effects on health not related to disease activity and standardised health status assessment, and may contribute to an understanding of how Tai Chi exerts its effects

[slamdunc]

Tai Chi is for pussies.

Tai Chi is for old people and pussies.

[Guird]

I have a recollection of there being several examples of tai-chi schools consistently producing competent wrestlers and kickboxers. The 'full contact kung fu' thread has a few.
I'm surprised I haven't seen them brought up in the discussions surrounding this event. Also, wasn't yang-style largely spread through challenge matches (well prior to being adopted and modified turned 'long form' by the chinese government.

I mean, obviosuly tai chi has no fighting application as practiced by the vast majority of people, but I get the impression that what is practiced by the majority of people is somewhat of a mis-characterization of tai chi. I've seen a few demonstrations of tai chi applications that were pretty similar to well-known wrestling techniques.

this post is a little all over the place, sorry, I just wanted to remind people of this, see how it influences the discussion.

[Pship Destroyer]

Tai chi is used to fight two of the most brutal enemies you can ever face father time and his partner arthritis. This actually makes it probably the most useful of all martial arts.

I read somewhere Tai Chi wasn't necessarily that good if you have arthritis...I need time to find the study, but stand by.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

Translation:having some grappling experience is useful for all grappling.

Yeah, that's a fair analysis. I've heard similar things from guys who started in Aikido before training BJJ, as well.

[Raycetpfl]

A little bit of Devil's Advocate, here.

Josh Waitzkin was a world champion in Tai Chi push-hands before beginning his journey in BJJ. He's now a black belt under Marcelo Garcia and has noted that his Tai Chi experience gave him a big advantage in sensitivity and responsivity when he began learning Jiu-Jitsu.

Translation:having some grappling experience is useful for all grappling.

[Pship Destroyer]

I agree with this too. I guess I should ammend my earlier post to say, it's really good exercise for old people. Like really old.

But probably not as good as a tailored resistance training regime. Weights are good for old people too.

I do yoga before and after weight training and it's pretty useful for warming up and cooling down.

I've never trained it, but based on the videos I imagine tai chi before or after weights is practically the same.

It's probably more useful AS you get older. At almost 40 I'm no spring chicken and my body needs to properly prepare and slow down from exercise, or I pay painful penalties.

I'll never think poorly of slow, graceful stretching exercises, even at middle age.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

A little bit of Devil's Advocate, here.

Josh Waitzkin was a world champion in Tai Chi push-hands before beginning his journey in BJJ. He's now a black belt under Marcelo Garcia and has noted that his Tai Chi experience gave him a big advantage in sensitivity and responsivity when he began learning Jiu-Jitsu.

[BJMills]

My $0.02: Tai chi is a very light form of exercise. Lighter than yoga, lighter than most types of exercise. Suitable for the elderly. So, when someone non-decrepit gets invested in it, even the "tai chi is great exercise" part loses some of its appeal. Cause its not great exercise; its okay exercise. Why do okay exerxise, when there is great exercise available? Cause its not very hard, and the esoteric nature of it lets one claim vague benefits, including martial arts ability. This is coming from someone with maybe five years of tai chi experience.

I agree with this too. I guess I should ammend my earlier post to say, it's really good exercise for old people. Like really old.

But probably not as good as a tailored resistance training regime. Weights are good for old people too.

[Permalost]

I'm a little disappointed that the challenge match that lead to this all didn't look like this:

Seriously, though, the video stated several health related reasons to practice Tai Chi. There's evidence it can be very beneficial for many people who are seeking to improve their health. So why can't that be enough? Why do people have to be upset or even feel threatened that in addition to all of that, it's also not simultaneously a top of the line combat art? More people need good health than emptyhanded combat ability.

My $0.02: Tai chi is a very light form of exercise. Lighter than yoga, lighter than most types of exercise. Suitable for the elderly. So, when someone non-decrepit gets invested in it, even the "tai chi is great exercise" part loses some of its appeal. Cause its not great exercise; its okay exercise. Why do okay exerxise, when there is great exercise available? Cause its not very hard, and the esoteric nature of it lets one claim vague benefits, including martial arts ability. This is coming from someone with maybe five years of tai chi experience.

[Bneterasedmynam]

Tai chi is used to fight two of the most brutal enemies you can ever face father time and his partner arthritis. This actually makes it probably the most useful of all martial arts.

[BJMills]

I'm a little disappointed that the challenge match that lead to this all didn't look like this:

Seriously, though, the video stated several health related reasons to practice Tai Chi. There's evidence it can be very beneficial for many people who are seeking to improve their health. So why can't that be enough? Why do people have to be upset or even feel threatened that in addition to all of that, it's also not simultaneously a top of the line combat art? More people need good health than emptyhanded combat ability.

I agree with you completely. I lived in Shanghai for a little while years ago. There was a park near my apartment where I'd see a bunch of old people doing tai chi early in the morning while I was on my way to work. They seem pretty spry. I genuinely think there is a health value there. The focus and meditation aspect of that kind of practice is probably good for an aging brain as well.

[Pship Destroyer]

You truly are the Troma of martial arts, Armando.