Self Defense vs Combat Sports: Help Explaining the Difference

[AcerTempest]

Whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. There is no good Krav. It all sucks.

OP, you already know the answer or you wouldn't be here asking the question. You know what you're looking at and you know instinctively it is garbage. But you're wrong about their striking. That sucks too. You just aren't knowledgeable enough yet to know that. That's not an insult. You said yourself you have limited knowledge of striking.

Go with your gut on this one. As long as your gut tells you to make your life Krav-free. If your gut tells you something else, then do what I'm telling you and move away from the Krav and do not look back.

I'm not gonna lie, other than what he said about not listening to me, just because I was saying the same thing but being much nicer about it, Devil is not wrong here.

The good Krav I have SEEN has all been exhibited by people who have SIGNIFICANT backgrounds in the component arts of Krav, that is Boxing, Wrestling, and Judo.
The main problem with MOST martial arts that have a good theoretical basis is the same. How are you at doing that against someone who: 1. Knows what you are going to do. 2. Understands the means by which you are doing it. 3. Is ACTIVELY trying to stop you.

If WHATEVER you are training does not include this element to it, then it doesn't matter what you THINK you are getting out of it, you are wrong and it is limiting you.

[Devil]

I'm not gonna lie, other than what he said about not listening to me, just because I was saying the same thing but being much nicer about it, Devil is not wrong here.

The good Krav I have SEEN has all been exhibited by people who have SIGNIFICANT backgrounds in the component arts of Krav, that is Boxing, Wrestling, and Judo.
The main problem with MOST martial arts that have a good theoretical basis is the same. How are you at doing that against someone who: 1. Knows what you are going to do. 2. Understands the means by which you are doing it. 3. Is ACTIVELY trying to stop you.

If WHATEVER you are training does not include this element to it, then it doesn't matter what you THINK you are getting out of it, you are wrong and it is limiting you.

I repeat, there is no good Krav and you have seen nothing of the sort. If people know how to fight it's because they learned it training something other than Krav.

By all means, please show me one single video of "good Krav."

Hint: Anything you show me will either suck or be something other than Krav.

[AcerTempest]

I repeat, there is no good Krav and you have seen nothing of the sort. If people know how to fight it's because they learned it training something other than Krav.

By all means, please show me one single video of "good Krav."

Hint: Anything you show me will either suck or be something other than Krav.

Ok, so what is your fundamental problem with KM? Why is it that it ALL has to suck for you to be happy with yourself?

Now, as to whether all of it DOES suck, you may be right there, but my question is more about your psychology on this.

You left a false dichotomy of choices there, and you damn well know better. Maybe all Krav does suck.
I would not necessarily agree with you, but the one person I know that has training in Krav can fight decently and is a 20 year veteran police officer with use of force experience. He is also one of my training partners in HEMA, and when we close to H2H range, he is able to apply what he learned in KM to fight back to his tool, in this case a sword, but I have no reason to doubt he can fight to his pistol or Tazer equally well.
Most of my experience of Krav comes from this filter. Outside of that, I must admit that the VIDEOS of KM on the internet look terrible, but once again I have to ask WHY does it ALL have to be terrible for you to be ok with your self?

[Raycetpfl]

By all means, please show me one single video of "good Krav."

Hint: Anything you show me will either suck or be something other than Krav.

This is pretty accurate. I actually had a kickboxing coach that was a Krav teacher. He learned to strike doing , Dutch style Muay Thai ,jkd and karate. He was actually quite skilled standing.I got free private lessons as part of a deal where I taught bjj. Unfortunately he still had that Krav mindset of overwhelming aggression when he taught krav to people incapable of sustaining that kind of physical onslaught. Even "good krav" has a poor operating theory. Ironically, when he was instructing kickboxing he didn't teach like that.

[Raycetpfl]

Ok, so what is your fundamental problem with KM? ?

Their operating theory is shit. They pride force over proper execution and ignore the realities of human pain tolerance and determination in a physical confrontation.

[AcerTempest]

Their operating theory is shit. They pride force over proper execution and ignore the realities of human pain tolerance and determination in a physical confrontation.

Ok, that seems like a real problem. On the other hand, I am having trouble finding a unifying theory behind KM at all. Each instructor seems to be doing his/her own thing.

Now, do you feel that they usually OVER or UNDER-estimate the realities of human pain tolerance and determination? Or is it usually some strange mix that doesn't make any sense?

[BKR]

This is pretty accurate. I actually had a kickboxing coach that was a Krav teacher. He learned to strike doing , Dutch style Muay Thai ,jkd and karate. He was actually quite skilled standing.I got free private lessons as part of a deal where I taught bjj. Unfortunately he still had that Krav mindset of overwhelming aggression when he taught krav to people incapable of sustaining that kind of physical onslaught. Even "good krav" has a poor operating theory. Ironically, when he was instructing kickboxing he didn't teach like that.

That makes sense considering what Michael T. wrote about the Krav "philosophy" if you will.

In a true combat situation, that sort of naked, hyper-adrenalized, maybe "last ditch" effort might well be a valid response, especially given that the soldier in question will not be particularly well trained in H2H, perhaps not subject to stress innoculation training in H2H environment, either.

[BKR]

Ok, that seems like a real problem. On the other hand, I am having trouble finding a unifying theory behind KM at all. Each instructor seems to be doing his/her own thing.

Now, do you feel that they usually OVER or UNDER-estimate the realities of human pain tolerance and determination? Or is it usually some strange mix that doesn't make any sense?

If you watch enough Krav videos, you will see uke drop like flies...

Read Michael T's post about Krav to get the unified theory of Krav.

[Michael Tzadok]

Ok, so what is your fundamental problem with KM? Why is it that it ALL has to suck for you to be happy with yourself?

I'll answer this for you. It is a combatives system lacking an underlying martial art. Gracie Combatives works because once you have those basics down, you move into BJJ.

MACP works because their base system is Gracie Combatives(and I believe was around before Gracie Combatives was a thing) and then once you have those fundamentals down you move into MMA with guns.

Real Russian Systema works(Kadochnikov or ROSS) because when you finish with those fundamentals you move into Combat Sambo.

Krav Maga has no underlying martial art. From lowest level to highest it is the same sloppy kick boxing working on focusing aggression. It has no way of dealing with a trained striker or grappler, and simply assuming that all of your attackers are going to be untrained is silly at best.

Watch this:

Notice the MMA guy just has to take them to the ground to dominate. Then he gets told "don't take it to the ground, we train our people to never go the ground." A halfway competent grappler will always be able to take it to the ground, and then KM is out.

[Raycetpfl]

Ok, that seems like a real problem. On the other hand, I am having trouble finding a unifying theory behind KM at all. Each instructor seems to be doing his/her own thing.

Now, do you feel that they usually OVER or UNDER-estimate the realities of human pain tolerance and determination? Or is it usually some strange mix that doesn't make any sense?

They underestimate their opponents and over estimate the effect their techniques will have.

[Raycetpfl]

MACP works because their base system is Gracie Combatives(and I believe was around before Gracie Combatives was a thing) and then once you have those fundamentals down you move into MMA with guns.

The Gracie Academy/Royce and Rorian were very involved with creating the army combatives, I am told.

Watch this:

Notice the MMA guy just has to take them to the ground to dominate. Then he gets told "don't take it to the ground, we train our people to never go the ground." A halfway competent grappler will always be able to take it to the ground, and then KM is out.

That dude is a white belt in bjj,wrestled in high school and was a marine. Seriously , that's all it takes to school them.

[AcerTempest]

They underestimate their opponents and over estimate the effect their techniques will have.

I see. Fair enough then. And thank you to Michal Tzadock for your response as well. I suppose I have been biased by the fighters I have seen up close using moves that LOOK kinda like Krav, but if that is supposed to be the best stuff, yeah, I am gonna go with Devil's answer.

That is just... turtles all the way down.. really stupid turtles it seems.

[Devil]

Ok, so what is your fundamental problem with KM? Why is it that it ALL has to suck for you to be happy with yourself?

Now, as to whether all of it DOES suck, you may be right there, but my question is more about your psychology on this.

You left a false dichotomy of choices there, and you damn well know better. Maybe all Krav does suck.
I would not necessarily agree with you, but the one person I know that has training in Krav can fight decently and is a 20 year veteran police officer with use of force experience. He is also one of my training partners in HEMA, and when we close to H2H range, he is able to apply what he learned in KM to fight back to his tool, in this case a sword, but I have no reason to doubt he can fight to his pistol or Tazer equally well.
Most of my experience of Krav comes from this filter. Outside of that, I must admit that the VIDEOS of KM on the internet look terrible, but once again I have to ask WHY does it ALL have to be terrible for you to be ok with your self?

My fundamental problem with Krav is that they advertise as teaching teh r43L DEDLY despite teaching people shit that just doesn't work in a fight. More specifically, as others have pointed out, they teach aggression with no real delivery system. Their fundamentals always suck unless they've cross trained. If they've only trained in Krav by an instructor who only trained in Krav, they're not going to know how to punch properly, kick properly, grapple properly, do anything properly. They're going to be shit fighters walking around with a false sense of self-confidence.

I've said it before. Where's the video of good Krav? You will never find it. Ever. It doesn't exist. You may find some dudes doing kickboxing or something that looks decent while wearing a Krav t-shirt and sporting a mean grimace. But it won't be Krav.

[BKR]

They underestimate their opponents and over estimate the effect their techniques will have.

Nice, succinct !

[Raycetpfl]

If you watch enough Krav videos, you will see uke drop like flies...

Read Michael T's post about Krav to get the unified theory of Krav.

There's also somethinges to be said for the Krav practitioner training themselves to go down and out to shots because "that's what you are supposed to do." I read a book called Meditations On Violence. In the book the author references robbers running away after being shot 5 times and cops being put out out of commission with a single shot. He believes it's because cops lay down and die because that's what they are supposed to do"