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Self Defense vs Combat Sports: Help Explaining the Difference

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    #16
    Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post
    If believing that helps you sleep at night.
    I am sure your KM training helps you feel nice and safe at night.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by Cassius View Post
      I don't really know what the differences between special forces, police, and civilian Krav Maga are, but I sure am interested to learn.
      Given Special Forces nor Police focus on H2H stuff at all I am going to go with marketing?

      Comment


        #18
        Krav Maga is the ONLY martial art that Israeli security forces are legally allowed to learn. Alternately to be a Martial Arts instructor in Israel you MUST take a combative instructors course through the Wingate.

        Now that being said if you get down into the nitty gritty of it you will be amazed at how little the Israeli Army cares for KM. The combat units in general have less exposure to it than US Army infantrymen do to MACP. The basic course in the Israeli Army is 10hrs long. The instructors course is 120hrs long. Funny considering you can be a Renzo Gracie black belt and still have to take a 340hr course at the Wingate in order to teach civilians. Even more intersting when you think that Yamam and several other professional units actually travel to Russia each year to learn combat Sambo under Retuinskih and the airport security at Ben Gurion learn BJJ. In short those people that have to use MA to defend themselves are finding loopholes in order to learn something other KM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by goodlun View Post
          Given Special Forces nor Police focus on H2H stuff at all I am going to go with marketing?
          It's a pity we have to go from talking about MMA tactics to this. But, do you really believe the military has absolutely H2H at all? Or the police? I guess that interview with Rener Gracie talking about bjj in the police force was also nonsense?

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post
            If believing that helps you sleep at night.
            What is the BJJ taught to police? We have cops at BJJ school where I train. They do what everybody else does.

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              #21
              Originally posted by BKR View Post
              What is the BJJ taught to police? We have cops at BJJ school where I train. They do what everybody else does.
              It's just bjj. Only the focus is somewhere else. Let me put it this way. In a bjj match, your aim maintain dominant position and try to work a submission of some sort. The bjj taught to police uses the same concepts and techniques but their aim is different: to not have to get into a ground fight or escape a ground fight if it occurs. Usage of dominant position is similar and still there but now they use it to try to get cuffs on the guy instead of trying to find a submission. It's as Rener says: "Who better to teach you how to get out of a pool than a swimmer? Who better to teach you how to escape a ground fight than a jiujitsu master?"

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                #22
                Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post
                It's just bjj. Only the focus is somewhere else. Let me put it this way. In a bjj match, your aim maintain dominant position and try to work a submission of some sort. The bjj taught to police uses the same concepts and techniques but their aim is different: to not have to get into a ground fight or escape a ground fight if it occurs. Usage of dominant position is similar and still there but now they use it to try to get cuffs on the guy instead of trying to find a submission. It's as Rener says: "Who better to teach you how to get out of a pool than a swimmer? Who better to teach you how to escape a ground fight than a jiujitsu master?"
                Right but to get good at that you need to ground grapple a lot in general, including rolling.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
                  Krav Maga is the ONLY martial art that Israeli security forces are legally allowed to learn. Alternately to be a Martial Arts instructor in Israel you MUST take a combative instructors course through the Wingate.

                  Now that being said if you get down into the nitty gritty of it you will be amazed at how little the Israeli Army cares for KM. The combat units in general have less exposure to it than US Army infantrymen do to MACP. The basic course in the Israeli Army is 10hrs long. The instructors course is 120hrs long. Funny considering you can be a Renzo Gracie black belt and still have to take a 340hr course at the Wingate in order to teach civilians. Even more intersting when you think that Yamam and several other professional units actually travel to Russia each year to learn combat Sambo under Retuinskih and the airport security at Ben Gurion learn BJJ. In short those people that have to use MA to defend themselves are finding loopholes in order to learn something other KM.
                  Isn't this mostly because they don't have regular access to boxing and judo and wrestling, the original fundamentals of Krav Maga? They're getting some rationed, bastardized version of what was originally just a set hodgepodge of martial arts, right?

                  Wasn't the original program the mirror image of Krav Maga today? Back then it was "let's teach boxing, judo, and wrestling to soldiers".

                  Now it's become the opposite..."learn the martial art of Israeli soldiers: Krav Maga!*" (*or just do boxing, judo and wrestling).

                  Based on what I've seen, you could wipe Krav Maga out of ever being, and nothing of value would be lost OTHER than the teachings of its founder.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by BKR View Post
                    Right but to get good at that you need to ground grapple a lot in general, including rolling.
                    Oh yes. The bjj master teaching me grappling always said person best at countering a technique is the person who has mastered said technique since they know the ins and outs.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDq3Aur3uIQ

                    This was the interview I mentioned. I think you'll enjoy it. It's fifty minutes long and I don't remember where but somewhere in there, Rener said something along the lines of they don't teach the police all the takedowns and nuances they would in regular bjj because the police don't need them. They still roll. They still have to practice many of the same things any other bjj practitioner would practice. But they also lacked many things that your bjj would have because they are not needed for that specific duty. Their focus is to get the guy in cuffs.

                    Another guy helping me with my grappling is from the army. As he puts it, the army's combative's program is nowhere near as deep as bjj, wrestling, or the grappling aspect of mma. That's because if a soldier ends up in a grappling situation or has to fall back upon H2H then you messed up somewhere. They put a focus on escape the grappling situation and making space so they can use their other more appropriate tools to handle the situation. They still roll and learn identical techniques and concepts. But their focus is elsewhere.

                    Does this help clarify what I mean?

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post
                      if a soldier ends up in a grappling situation or has to fall back upon H2H then you messed up somewhere
                      which is why the whole "but the IDF use it!" spiel is crap

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Pship Destroyer View Post
                        Isn't this mostly because they don't have regular access to boxing and judo and wrestling, the original fundamentals of Krav Maga? They're getting some rationed, bastardized version of what was originally just a set hodgepodge of martial arts, right?

                        Wasn't the original program the mirror image of Krav Maga today? Back then it was "let's teach boxing, judo, and wrestling to soldiers".

                        Now it's become the opposite..."learn the martial art of Israeli soldiers: Krav Maga!*" (*or just do boxing, judo and wrestling).

                        Based on what I've seen, you could wipe Krav Maga out of ever being, and nothing of value would be lost OTHER than the teachings of its founder.
                        Wrestling isn't that big in Israel, but boxing, Judo, and MT gyms can be found with remarkable ease. Now Boxing and Judo are two sports that Israel happens to be remarkably competitive in on the international stage, and the local clubs reflect that. Meaning as an adult hobbyist dropping in they can be a bit unwelcoming. For a kid in high school that is considering a future in a combat unit though they are perfect. Also nearly every combat sports club in Israel is listed as a non-profit primarily on the basis that they provide free training to active duty(and some times reservist) security forces. The primary exceptions to this tend to be KM clubs(go figure). Which means you will find MMA, BJJ and MT gyms usually have one or more professional soldiers/police hanging about. 8yr contract with a unit means 8yrs free training...

                        Krav Maga training doctrine(remember given to all combat units) is to harness emotion into aggression and then to harness aggression into directed ferocity to overwhelm the enemy. That sounds great. Teaching a bunch of testosterone filled young men to get angry and lash out ought to be a no brainer. However, what it doesn't do is give appropriate stress inoculation(remember no live sparring and no competition) to be able to do that when the brain goes into fight, flight or freeze response. A perfect example of how this failed four young men, leading to the deaths of three, the capture of one and the release of 1027 terrorists 280 serving life sentences for actively murdering innocent civilians can be found here:
                        http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Gilad-S...n-words-308015
                        and
                        http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-The...Part-II-308198

                        It is an appalling story of how a young man in what is considered an elite unit(by Israeli standards) utterly failed himself and those around him.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by AcerTempest View Post
                          Errmkay, you likely are not going to want to here this, but if you are on the mat as a BJJ practitioner for about 10 years, along with the other things that you mentioned, then you likely have more actual skills to bring to the table than your "Krav" instructor.

                          The first problem is that Krav has a HUGE quality control issue. There is a LOT of very bad Krav out there, with people trying to patch their really bad Krav with crap they got from other systems. That is likely why the stand up looked ok, because whoever the instructor was likely understood stand-up fighting.

                          The second problem is a complete misunderstanding about what Krav is to the people who developed it, that is the Israeli army.
                          For them, it is one of SEVERAL tools that their soldiers use to fight day in and day out in a country that has been at war since its inception.
                          They understand, intuitively, when and where you can do certain things in a way that is nearly impossible to communicate to someone who does not have combat experience.

                          'Why does this matter?', you may ask.
                          Well, for one thing, it means that most of the people teaching Krav, even the ones that do it REALLY well and have successfully USED it, in self defense, LE, or military contexts, don't really understand WHY it worked, only that it DID work.
                          What that means to you, as a new student, is that you are likely being taught 3rd hand information from someone who really does not have a CLUE why they are doing what they are doing.

                          It would be like taking BJJ instruction from a white belt who had just had a few lessons and just happened to be tapping the other white belts.

                          Whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. There is no good Krav. It all sucks.

                          OP, you already know the answer or you wouldn't be here asking the question. You know what you're looking at and you know instinctively it is garbage. But you're wrong about their striking. That sucks too. You just aren't knowledgeable enough yet to know that. That's not an insult. You said yourself you have limited knowledge of striking.

                          Go with your gut on this one. As long as your gut tells you to make your life Krav-free. If your gut tells you something else, then do what I'm telling you and move away from the Krav and do not look back.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post

                            A few things to note is there are multiple versions of Krav Maga.
                            Because Krav nerds like their suckage to come in a variety of flavors.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              This response is directed to the OP. What are your friends hoping to get out of the self defence training? If their life situation has changed and shit is getting dangerous get a gun. If its more of a h2h threat bjj, mt, mma ect is better. You cant substitute fighting without actually fighting. The misconception people have with sport styles or martial arts is you need to dedicate years to be able to defend yourself. You dont, if you can learn everything in krav maga in 6 months i can gurantee you can learn how to avoid getting hit and actually deal some damage if you did boxing for example in the same time frame. You dont need to be a champion in order to use the techniques.

                              the ciriculum differs from place to place which brings up the point of 'quality control' that others have mentioned. school across town has part of their curriculum at level 5 (whatever that means) was 'defence against hand grenade'. I would expect to learn that shit maybe, maybe if i was an infantryman. What use does a civilian have for this shit apart from seek cover.

                              id rather learn something that i can train and is usefull (like a take down or something). Benefits of sport fighting is: easy to learn, live training, conditioning+fitness. They essentially are centered around techniques that have been used for centuries (cos they work).

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by TheAngryOrange View Post
                                It's a pity we have to go from talking about MMA tactics to this. But, do you really believe the military has absolutely H2H at all? Or the police? I guess that interview with Rener Gracie talking about bjj in the police force was also nonsense?

                                Police should be learning BJJ. Instead they cover hand-to-hand for a day or two at the Academy.
                                Krav Maga is ridiculous for police to learn. Their motto is " Protect and serve", not ,"Maim and kill because they were looking at me funny." It might be more detrimental to police officers if Krav Maga actually worked for them.
                                It's easy to be out of control and just flail wildly. Controlling a situation is what takes skill.

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