I am officially calling you out Rayce you coward.

[Pship Destroyer]

So,
...
But when it comes to actually fighting people who are good at fighting, BJJ fails. Badly. This board has 1 MMA athlete? Despite Dana White, there is good money in MMA. Jay got $80 K a year in sponsorship money. We now have actual good athletes in MMA.

"So," [PS: The most over-used literary construct online is "So,", mental note to self, remove this from vocabulary]



Anyhow...your argument is absurd because BJJ techniques (alone) have had a successful run in UFC. Striking eventually caught up when everyone's grappling skills nominalized.

"1 MMA athelete" is likewise absurd because there are all sorts of competitors here including pro/ammy MMA, judo, BJJ, kung fu ass kickers, arnisadoras.

[It is Fake]

I don't know why someone would think they can "win" by trolling bullshido. All they really manage to accomplish is providing a distraction for people here.
No one over hear is actually getting offended.
Oh look at how I am a puppet master as I get people to comment on shit I said....yeah like that isn't why we are here in the 1st place.
Oh yeah you sure got the better of me by giving me something to do while I wait for vCenter to reload.
vCenter's SSO can go eat a dick by the way.

It was a thing back in 2006 -2011(?) when the board was much more active. Like I sad before there are some really good ones in trollshido and maybe the classic area. Hell, some have two or three threads. Rarely was it the "hahaha I got you to respond to me seriously, when I posted just like a noob to martial arts." The fact a guy pointing out "it is 2017" is using a decade old shitty trolling tactic is funny.

Hell, much of his trolling currently reminds me of Devil.

[BackFistMonkey]

Not one syllable of the first post was written by me.

You are a liar.
Your account (you) wrote the post.
I moved a post you wrote to it's own thread because you wanted exposure.
Stop lying.

[goodlun]

You need to step back and think for a moment: I did not make this thread. Back Fist Monkey made it. Not one syllable of the first post was written by me.

Fucking moron, you did write it, the 1st post was pulled from something that got junked to trollshido. Back Fist Monkey did pull it from your other shitty thread and made a new thread for it. Your dumb ass still wrote it.

the switch and trolled him back, and you guys all took the bait.

LOL Bait, you missed the point of my post. You think some how that we are being "trolled" no we are poking fun at you which is very entertaining. Even if you are a sock puppet of Omega or Sirc or HM or a real person it doesn't matter. We have been having fun, mostly at your expense. Calling out your stupidity is fun not a burden. Replying back is a way to kill time.

Look, I am really starting to feel bad for you guys. You were probably picked on at school, had your lunch money stolen and never kissed a girl until you were 30.

You found a sport where everyone is a winner, everyone can join if they have the money. BJJ is a place where a geek can learn to actually learn to defend his or her self. But don't start living in a fantasy world. You will never win against a superior athlete who can wrestle and strike. I train BJJ because I know that a fight can go everywhere, ground, feet, multiples etc. Especially as I get older.

If you do not have solid fundamentals on the ground you are not a complete fighter. But don't live in a fantasy world. You are not going to get a wrestler/striker to the ground unless you have help. You are going to walk into a real wrestling school or club and get taken down and you will not be able to take any of the wrestlers down. You are not going to hang with boxers/strikers who train in a real program.

LMAO I don't give a fuck about self defense or fighting or being a bad ass.

[GrouchyOldMan]

You need to step back and think for a moment: I did not make this thread. Back Fist Monkey made it. Not one syllable of the first post was written by me.
Butt Fuck Monkey was attempting to Troll me. I flipped the switch and trolled him back, and you guys all took the bait.

Look, I am really starting to feel bad for you guys. You were probably picked on at school, had your lunch money stolen and never kissed a girl until you were 30.

You found a sport where everyone is a winner, everyone can join if they have the money. BJJ is a place where a geek can learn to actually learn to defend his or her self. But don't start living in a fantasy world. You will never win against a superior athlete who can wrestle and strike. I train BJJ because I know that a fight can go everywhere, ground, feet, multiples etc. Especially as I get older.

If you do not have solid fundamentals on the ground you are not a complete fighter. But don't live in a fantasy world. You are not going to get a wrestler/striker to the ground unless you have help. You are going to walk into a real wrestling school or club and get taken down and you will not be able to take any of the wrestlers down. You are not going to hang with boxers/strikers who train in a real program.

Or, maybe they just like choking people?

[preschol]

Or, maybe they just like choking people?

Look...I love BJJ, it is a fantastic art and an absolutely essential component of self defense. If a regular guy came up to me and asked "hey, I know nothing about fighting, but I want to learn how to defend myself as quickly and efficiently as possible" I would probably suggest BJJ if it was old school and not pure sport oriented.

You train on the feet 25% of the time, learn how to avoid strikes, get the clinch and win on the ground. That is the BJJ I trained in 20 years ago.

But you must understand its limitations. You are not going to develop high level striking and wrestling in a BJJ class. As I said before, I would tell someone to train in BJJ at least 3 times a week for at least a full year. That would give you what you probably would need to "save your life" in a bad situation.

But lets get real. You are not and will not become some amazing bad assed street fighter or MMA professional. You will need to train in a dedicated striking program and a dedicated wrestling program.

Many MMA schools have high level striking and wrestling coaches. Many do not.

Just stop the BJJ is the God of martial arts nonsense.

I can tell you as a fact that Renzo and Ralph never claimed this sort of foolishness. Of course BJJ is their specialty, but Renzo did a lot of MT and Ralph had a boxing coach fulltime at his school. Ralph had a very solid boxing background.

All Renzo professional fighters spend a ton of time training under Longo. Both Renzo and Ralph spent a ton of time with quality striking instruction.

Renzo fought some rude bastard at a gas station and he did not pull guard, he punched him.

As I have mentioned before, only BJJ guys think they can beat all martial artists. You never hear Golden Glove champs or high level wrestlers spew some sort of nonsense of being able to beat the world with only one martial art. They respect (and are interested in learning) BJJ. Most of them would train if BJJ were not so expensive. I train my sons wrestling coach and he loves BJJ.

He has tremendous respect for the art.

BJJ is the only martial art that has many practitioners who think they are the be all and end all of fighting.

You never see this nonsense on boxing and wrestling boards.

[Michael Tzadok]

Migliarese demonstrated absolutely zero take down ability. What he did, and what top BJJ BBelts are excellent at is taking advantage of transitions once the fight hits the ground.

Clearly you don't watch a lot of Sambo, a lot of take downs are scored by stuffing the other guy's takedown and attaining superior position. At 1:18 Migliarese stuffed a leg hook take down, and wound up on back.

If there were no Gi's (or jackets in cold climates like Texas and Florida) and punching were involved from a decent striker the outcome would have ben very different.

If your uncle had a vagina and breasts he would be your aunt too...

Also, the Sambo guy made many many mistakes, from being too upright to not setting up and executing his takedowns properly.

It's called maintaining posture, and is a pretty key thing in Sambo and Judo. Do I really need to explain why? You don't bend over in jacket wrestling sports unless you want your face snapped down into the mat.
He executed his take downs well. They were just stuffed by another high level grappler. I guess now is the time to point out that Givi in addition to being a world Sambo champion also took gold in Worlds for Judo in 2001. That you even think you can criticize the technique of a guy who met with success on the international level in two jacket wrestling arts is supremely hilarious to me.

A decent wrestler would execute single legs on him all day long. Look at the 1:11 to 1:13 footage. That is a Judo takedown he uses at the 1:16 mark (and does not finish properly).

If you say so. Wrestling posture works because there is nothing to grab(actually grabbing clothing is illegal), and there are no strikes. So while it is great for defense against single and double leg take downs it is horrible for defense against strikes(which is why most MMA fighters use the same upright posture Givi demonstrates here), and it is horrible for defense against clothes grabbing takedowns. A decent Sambo player would be able to perform said snap down with anything as light as t-shirt to grab.

It would never work with a wrestler/boxer.

Video series called Gracies in Action says you are wrong. So does Gene Lebell

Migliarese is an absolute wizard on the ground. Beautiful top mount triangle. However, he would have to have excellent striking, because I do not see any evidence of him being able to get someone to the mat.

Aside from a world champion Sambo player and Judoka of course...

You do understand real fights start on the feet and involve punching and kicking, yes?

You do understand how really stupid you are starting to sound yes?

[Raycetpfl]

So, I take that you guys are willing to fight Jay? Shall I pass this info along?

Also, Jay illustrates my main point. BJJ champs generally do very poorly at real fighting. Jay was undefeated in NAGA (until I stopped prepping him) Jay beat everyone easily because there simpler are not very good athletes in BJJ. He was a grappling champion who transitioned to MMA. He mnoved out to team Quest and was mismanaged.
He lost fights not because of his grappling, it wa because when he got his bell wrung he would square up and start brawling.

That is boxing 101. When you get tagged you do one of two things: You either use the jab to get on your bike and move, or you clinch. If I were prepping him he would not make those mistakes. No one gave 2 shits about him.

Me on the other hand...sorry but my striking skill is better than Jays' and I have a granite chin. I had multiple compound fractures to the cheekbone and orbital socket and still submitted my opponent. The only time I have ever been knocked down was against a 250 lb pro.

You seem to think that being a grappling champ easily equates to being good at professional fighting. 99% of BJJ guys get punched in the face and quit. Unlike wrestlers, they come from a martial art where there is very little competition. All you need is money. It draws Trekkies and other geeks living in their parents basement. Most of them work in IT or other geek related fields that pay well. They can afford to pay $175 a month. Wrestling is free, boxing most of the time too.

With less than 3 months of BJJ I cleaned out the intermediate division. Won easily against Blue belts. Took them down at will, it was effortless. With one and a half years of BJJ I went 3 and 1 in the open division against purples and even a black. I lost in the finals to a Judoka even though I fought on a broken leg.

You are living in a fantasy world.

BJJ draws the bottom of the barrel in terms of athletic ability. Usually people that were cut from sports like baseball, football, basketball and wrestling. While Judo is a tough sport, it is weak here in the US. There are multiple guys fighting for a slot in wrestling. There are college scholarships. My son (9 years old) walks through the 8-13 year old kids BJJ class, he does not break a sweat. I do not force my son to compete, but he is 6 and 3 in wrestling. The competition is much, much tougher. There is absolutely no competition for him in BJJ. In the kids BJJ class everyone gets a prize just for showing up. That is because parents are shelling out big bucks for their son who gets his lunch money stolen by a wrestler every day at school. That is what makes BJJ great, someone with very little athletic ability can beat a bigger stronger person.

But when it comes to actually fighting people who are good at fighting, BJJ fails. Badly. This board has 1 MMA athlete? Despite Dana White, there is good money in MMA. Jay got $80 K a year in sponsorship money. We now have actual good athletes in MMA.

You're a loser and a know nothing. You can't box, you can't wrestle, you're stupid and worse you look like an uglier version of Steve Bannon. You have never competed at a high level and you're stupid.
If you ever think about sucide, don't do it. You would just fuck that up too. You can't do anything right I would bet.

[Raycetpfl]

[jnp]

Just stop the BJJ is the God of martial arts nonsense.

You never see this nonsense on boxing and wrestling boards.

You missed the BJJihad several years back. Then again, maybe you didn't sock puppet troll.

BJJ covers one third of the three ranges of unarmed combat. It does not cover the other two, the striking and the throwing/clinch range. The majority of BJJ guys on this site realize this already. You're just wasting time on a point most people already accept.

I went to Dan Gables wrestling camp as a junior in high school in 1985. J. Robinson took over the next year. I attended Coach Robinson's month long wrestling camp in 1986. We worked out 8 hours a day. Why do I tell you this? Because I'm letting you know why my seven years of competition wrestling in high school and college make me more qualified to speak on these matters than you. This is based on you telling the board that you wrestled for a few years in high school.

Wrestling is great. It teaches a relentless mindset that BJJ often lacks. That said, speaking as an older guy, if I still trained with that mindset, my body would be completely broken rather than only partially. I plan to train as long as I can make it onto the mat. Did you know that Dan Gable can no longer walk? He gets around with a wheelchair now.

[Michael Tzadok]

You missed the BJJihad several years back. Then again, maybe you didn't sock puppet troll.

BJJ covers one third of the three ranges of unarmed combat. It does not cover the other two, the striking and the throwing/clinch range. The majority of BJJ guys on this site realize this already. You're just wasting time on a point most people already accept.

I went to Dan Gables wrestling camp as a junior in high school in 1985. J. Robinson took over the next year. I attended Coach Robinson's month long wrestling camp in 1986. We worked out 8 hours a day. Why do I tell you this? Because I'm letting you know why my seven years of competition wrestling in high school and college make me more qualified to speak on these matters than you. This is based on you telling the board that you wrestled for a few years in high school.

Wrestling is great. It teaches a relentless mindset that BJJ often lacks. That said, speaking as an older guy, if I still trained with that mindset, my body would be completely broken rather than only partially. I plan to train as long as I can make it onto the mat. Did you know that Dan Gable can no longer walk? He gets around with a wheelchair now.

In fairness the reason that Dan Gable has a hard time getting around now has less to do with his training and more to do with bad genetics twice over. He needed a hip replacement because of bad genetics, and his body pretty much rejected it because of worse genetics. Not the only person I know that this has happened too... It sucks, but is pretty much training unrelated.

[Raycetpfl]

BJJ covers one third of the three ranges of unarmed combat. It does not cover the other two, the striking and the throwing/clinch range.
.

I disagree with this. I would say Gjj specializes in getting past the striking range into the clinch range To take things to the ground. Obviously different Schools have different focus but saying bjj is 1 dimensional is inaccurate. This is like claiming wrestling and Judo don't have good pins.

I also think as a whole freestyle wrestling has the best leg takedowns ,Judo has the best throws, and Bjj has the best ground work. Claiming bjj doesn't have takedowns is like claiming as soon as Olympic wrestlers hit their takedowns they have no idea how to pin because they only know one range of combat. That's kinda silly.

[preschol]

You missed the BJJihad several years back. Then again, maybe you didn't sock puppet troll.

BJJ covers one third of the three ranges of unarmed combat. It does not cover the other two, the striking and the throwing/clinch range. The majority of BJJ guys on this site realize this already. You're just wasting time on a point most people already accept.

I went to Dan Gables wrestling camp as a junior in high school in 1985. J. Robinson took over the next year. I attended Coach Robinson's month long wrestling camp in 1986. We worked out 8 hours a day. Why do I tell you this? Because I'm letting you know why my seven years of competition wrestling in high school and college make me more qualified to speak on these matters than you. This is based on you telling the board that you wrestled for a few years in high school.

Wrestling is great. It teaches a relentless mindset that BJJ often lacks. That said, speaking as an older guy, if I still trained with that mindset, my body would be completely broken rather than only partially. I plan to train as long as I can make it onto the mat. Did you know that Dan Gable can no longer walk? He gets around with a wheelchair now.

You are absolutely correct on every point accept 1: There are still BJJ guys like Rayce who think they get top level striking/wrestling in their BJJ class. I was, at first, incredulous that Rayce made this statement. He did, and he defended it over and over again. It was on the 42 page thread I participated in. The reason I worked that that thread up to 42 pages is the unending and relentless position held by a multitude of people. It was as if it were 1995.

I am sorry, I should not make sport out of these people, it was just astounding how vociferously they would argue that their wrestling and striking are equal to people who spent years is a dedicated wrestling program and or striking program.

There are several like minded in my area. One of the most talented people I ever trained with, a legit Black Belt and a Golden Gloves level striker lost his first professional fight because he refuses to wrestle. The fight was back and forth on the feet, but he kept trying to pull guard, of course failing each time. His father is one of the most knowledgeable martial artist ion the planet, but he also does not consider wrestling to be a real martial art, and he has reffed for the UFC.

I am amazed that there are people who still think this way. I explained it in the other thread that it is a well documented sociological/psychological tool called cognitive dissonance. I train BJJ. I am smart. Since I am smart BJJ must be the best martial art. The same thing is true of Kung Fu.

I beat my wife, therefore wife beating is OK.

On the other hand, I respect all martial arts. I have even integrated TKD and trapping into my routine. Trapping works in many situations (especially weapons).

There are 4 ranges of combat. There is a trapping range. The problem with Kung Fu trapping is that Kung Fu striking is so bad Kung Fu guys are unconscious by the time the fight is in that range. That is a critical range for the blade. If I trap your blade, you are fucked. That is also the range where I train biting, head butting and eye gouging.

FMA's heavily integrate these materials. I have been training in them for a while. I have no problem fighting Rayce with a blade, not because I am tough or crazy...because I know I will win. There are worlds of material that are extremely effective that these guys are oblivious to. There are a dozen knife fight challenges going on right now in the Philippines. It is a blade culture, and they have a system that is 1000 years old and extremely effective. It has to be because your ligfe depends on it. All grappling in FMA's is weapons based. Very, very few people here in the states have seen this system.

Please be clear: Dirty fighting alone will never win a fight. You must have a base in sport martial arts like wrestling, MT, boxing and BJJ to employ dirty fighting.

For example, I have you locked down in my guard on the bottom, your neck/juggler is right there.

BJJ/GJJ always emphasized position, exactly for these reasons. No matter where you are, you always maintain a position where tyour opponent can not bite/eue guouge, pr head butt. All the fancy half guards we see today don't work if I am head-butting you. Watch Renzo fight Strikers (who insultead a female Gracie, that's why Renzo stepped on his head).

I wrestled for 6 years, not 2. My wrestling system is based in sport wrestling but it is influenced by Dumog and JJJ. It does not require the athleticism of pure sport wrestling. However, I teach single legs. Why? Because if you are a ground guy you need them. If you are a stand up guy you need to defend the single and or double.

I respect all martial arts. Sadly, I am sorry but the people here do not. You may, and Murphy may, but my threads would never be so massive if the BJJ is God crowd respected other martial arts. They do not, so yes, I make fun of them.

If you want respect, you have to give respect. You have my respect, jnp. But sorry, the myopic and uneducated masses here do not.

Ironically, BJJ and Arnis/kali blade traing go perfectly with BJJ. A BJJ BB with 2-3 years of quality blade training would be unbeatable for anyone who did not have a gun. In fact, although I always carry a gun, I can get my blade out and on you much, much faster then most can draw and get on target.

[preschol]

I disagree with this. I would say Gjj specializes in getting past the striking range into the clinch range To take things to the ground. Obviously different Schools have different focus but saying bjj is 1 dimensional is inaccurate. This is like claiming wrestling and Judo don't have good pins.

I also think as a whole freestyle wrestling has the best leg takedowns ,Judo has the best throws, and Bjj has the best ground work. Claiming bjj doesn't have takedowns is like claiming as soon as Olympic wrestlers hit their takedowns they have no idea how to pin because they only know one range of combat. That's kinda silly.

jnp: See what I am saying.

[Dr. Gonzo]

In fairness the reason that Dan Gable has a hard time getting around now has less to do with his training and more to do with bad genetics twice over. He needed a hip replacement because of bad genetics, and his body pretty much rejected it because of worse genetics. Not the only person I know that this has happened too... It sucks, but is pretty much training unrelated.

Hmmm....
Wrestling is very hard on the hips and the knees.
A lot of wrestlers and judokas end up needing hip and knee replacements due to repeated trauma to those joints which results in small areas of blood flow disruption, which leads to the progressive death of the bone structure in the joint, which necessitates getting prosthetic replacements when the pain from the degeneration is no longer bearable.
Sometimes this process is accelerated by the frequent use of cortisone and prednisone therapy for injury pain relief,
and/or accelerated or caused on its own by arthritis conditions, and/or chronic microinflammation conditions (and this can be from a combination or an either/or of genetics and/or your body's reaction to your diet).
Here's the thing: training combat sports very intensely, with minimal safety equipment and training in realistic ways is actually very bad (incredibly bad) for your body from a trauma perspective.
Compound that over time with a decade or a couple decades or a few decades of performing those activities, and you will have the twisted and crippled body of Quasi-modo.
You will know a long time grappler in their middle age not by his ears (because he or she may have worn headgear), but by their inability to do the simple tasks of everyday living with both sides of their body without severe pain.
Getting old isn't for wimps.
Getting old as a long-time grappler is especially not for wimps.
That's life.
Eventually our bio-engineer researchers will be able to just grow new hips and new knees in our bodies and then transplant them or grow them in a lab.
Until then, if you want to play these sports in time periods measured in decades, not years, then you have to be willing to eventually be Darth Vader about it, as much machine as man, and probably living in constant daily pain in your middle age and beyond.