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    #16
    Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    IMHO spears work best in formations and while mounted. In a 1v1 open ground scenario they do have a couple draw backs.
    I am sure they do, but...
    The Spartans, The Roman Legions, the Zulu's, and many other groups of the most successful military operators of all times used the spear to good effect as a primary weapon in close quarter combat.
    Of course many of those groups relied on a serious shield and formation tactics, as you mention.
    English Pikeman also planted very long spears to resist a mounted charge, particularly while supported by archers whom they would defend, and are reported to have used those very large spears to surprisingly good effect as battlefield and dueling weapons against other weapons.
    Spears; it's a staff but with a pointy end.
    What's not to love, unless you are in narrow quarters.
    I'll leave that for the hand to hand weapons guys on the forum to answer.
    I'm a book worm on the subject, but with minimal practice with hand to hand weapon on weapon experience.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 4/14/2017 3:07pm, .

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
      I am sure they do, but...
      The Spartans, The Roman Legions, the Zulu's, and many other groups of the most successful military operators of all times used the spear to good effect as a primary weapon in close quarter combat.
      Of course many of those groups relied on a serious shield and formation tactics, as you mention.
      English Pikeman also planted very long spears to resist a mounted charge, particularly while supported by archers whom they would defend, and are reported to have used those very large spears to surprisingly good effect as battlefield and dueling weapons against other weapons.
      Spears; it's a staff but with a pointy end.
      What's not to love, unless you are in narrow quarters.
      I'll leave that for the hand to hand weapons guys on the forum to answer.
      I'm a book worm on the subject, but with minimal practice with hand to hand weapon on weapon experience.
      Oh don't get me wrong overall I think the spear is a better weapon, but in very certain situations it can have some major drawbacks.

      As regard to Rome, their equipment varied by era and legion. They were known to use swords heavily as well.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by BJMills View Post
        Someone should post that video to the ninjer section of MAP. Weapons, armor, hidden weapons... it's every trope they claim they train for that makes them too deadly to spar.
        Dude, you just blew my mind!

        I doubt it would change anyone's mind, though. They'd probably just call me a troll and argue amongst themselves about kamae. They might go, "Oh, we have that Knife Judo kata, so it means we'really effective without sparring."

        Comment


          #19
          Kukishin-ryu in armor is as koryu as you can get, but I myself have never worn a hakama - looks like it would be too hard to do newaza, or it would tear apart if you did.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
            They are for horse riding I was told. Samurai were mounted archers first and foremost I have been told....... sure that is wrong though.
            Methods of warfare changed over time. Eventually, "samurai" probably were not the majority of people involved in battles involving massed troops and firearms.

            You might google the word "ashi garu", and see what you find.

            Unless Murphy already has lectured you on Japanese military history...

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              #21
              Originally posted by BKR View Post
              Methods of warfare changed over time. Eventually, "samurai" probably were not the majority of people involved in battles involving massed troops and firearms.

              You might google the word "ashi garu", and see what you find.

              Unless Murphy already has lectured you on Japanese military history...
              I'll tell you a (no longer) secret.
              I grew up reading history books and folktales about Japan, Samurai, and Japanese peasants, who through their merits rose to the station of blackened teeth.
              I loved the references to JuJutsu and Judo in the Ian Fleming books.
              I was not allowed to read comic books growing up, Dad didn't think it was a good use of time, and no action figures either, they were "dolls".
              (ironically the same rules were not applied to my siblings who born almost a decade after me).
              But Russian fairytales, Irish fairytales, mythology, the Brothers Grimm, and history were all allowed, so those were my version of comic books.
              But like comic books, as I came to young adulthood, I realized that the ninja movies and Samurai archetypes that the media were feeding me/America were fantastical.
              I grew up near enough to Valley Forge that it was still possible to find lead bullets and arrow heads.
              And the more I became exposed to that history because I lived around it, and talking to vets from modern combat, the more I began to appreciate that things dysentery, footwear, and supply lines, rather than fancy swords or silly black pajamas were the kind of things that probably moved the military needle.
              Working on farms made me sympathize more with the peasant farmers, as I became an adult, than with Knights or Samurai, most of whom were probably right bastards to the common folk.
              So, I like the history.
              And, I know that I unfortunately offend some people by pointing out that I think a lot of what we are fed about Samurai and ninja has no more basis in reality than Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur.
              They are great tales. There may be things to be learned there.
              But, reality is a brutish, simple kind of thing, isn't it?
              And I have always been more impressed as adult with the people that managed to grow the crops the knights and samurai ate than the people who probably stole the fruits of the farmers labor, and the sons and daughters of the farmers, by brute force or the threat of brute force.
              When you look back at how the Samurai were said to have treated the common folk, they seem to be a bunch of serious assholes.
              I am not sure they are worthy of respect from that perspective.
              Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 4/14/2017 4:35pm, .

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
                .
                As regard to Rome, their equipment varied by era and legion. They were known to use swords heavily as well.
                Something that makes me giggle is the fact that the world was once conquered with what are basically pointy machettes.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                  I'll tell you a (no longer) secret.
                  I grew up reading history books and folktales about Japan, Samurai, and Japanese peasants, who through their merits rose to the station of blackened teeth.
                  I loved the references to JuJutsu and Judo in the Ian Fleming books.
                  I was not allowed to read comic books growing up, Dad didn't think it was a good use of time, and no action figures either, they were "dolls".
                  (ironically the same rules were not applied to my siblings who born almost a decade after me).
                  But Russian fairytales, Irish fairytales, mythology, the Brothers Grimm, and history were all allowed, so those were my version of comic books.
                  But like comic books, as I came to young adulthood, I realized that the ninja movies and Samurai archetypes that the media were feeding me/America were fantastical.
                  I grew up near enough to Valley Forge that it was still possible to find lead bullets and arrow heads.
                  And the more I became exposed to that history because I lived around it, and talking to vets from modern combat, the more I began to appreciate that things dysentery, footwear, and supply lines, rather than fancy swords or silly black pajamas were the kind of things that probably moved the military needle.
                  Working on farms made me sympathize more with the peasant farmers, as I became an adult, than with Knights or Samurai, most of whom were probably right bastards to the common folk.
                  So, I like the history.
                  And, I know that I unfortunately offend some people by pointing out that I think a lot of what we are fed about Samurai and ninja has no more basis in reality than Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur.
                  They are great tales. There may be things to be learned there.
                  But, reality is a brutish, simple kind of thing, isn't it?
                  And I have always been more impressed as adult with the people that managed to grow the crops the knights and samurai ate than the people who probably stole the fruits of the farmers labor, and the sons and daughters of the farmers, by brute force or the threat of brute force.
                  When you look back at how the Samurai were said to have treated the common folk, they seem to be a bunch of serious assholes.
                  I am not sure they are worthy of respect from that perspective.
                  If we were in dark age Poland I would have you whipped for your insolence.

                  Polish names that end in -icki are from Nobel Houses. Apparently my family couldn't hold on to their cash cause I have to work now instead of just beating mouthy peasants all day..... Oh how the mighty have fallen....

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Raycetpfl View Post
                    If we were in dark age Poland I would have you whipped for your insolence.

                    Polish names that end in -icki are from Nobel Houses. Apparently my family couldn't hold on to their cash cause I have to work now instead of just beating mouthy peasants all day..... Oh how the mighty have fallen....
                    My people are on the side of Taras Bulba.
                    (Actually, I am descended from Dombrovski's, for what that is worth, not sure what side they were on).
                    That said, I had a blast in Warsaw, and the Polish people were very hospitable.
                    Now I want pierogies...

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
                      I'll tell you a (no longer) secret.
                      I grew up reading history books and folktales about Japan, Samurai, and Japanese peasants, who through their merits rose to the station of blackened teeth.
                      I loved the references to JuJutsu and Judo in the Ian Fleming books.
                      I was not allowed to read comic books growing up, Dad didn't think it was a good use of time, and no action figures either, they were "dolls".
                      (ironically the same rules were not applied to my siblings who born almost a decade after me).
                      But Russian fairytales, Irish fairytales, mythology, the Brothers Grimm, and history were all allowed, so those were my version of comic books.
                      But like comic books, as I came to young adulthood, I realized that the ninja movies and Samurai archetypes that the media were feeding me/America were fantastical.
                      I grew up near enough to Valley Forge that it was still possible to find lead bullets and arrow heads.
                      And the more I became exposed to that history because I lived around it, and talking to vets from modern combat, the more I began to appreciate that things dysentery, footwear, and supply lines, rather than fancy swords or silly black pajamas were the kind of things that probably moved the military needle.
                      Working on farms made me sympathize more with the peasant farmers, as I became an adult, than with Knights or Samurai, most of whom were probably right bastards to the common folk.
                      So, I like the history.
                      And, I know that I unfortunately offend some people by pointing out that I think a lot of what we are fed about Samurai and ninja has no more basis in reality than Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur.
                      They are great tales. There may be things to be learned there.
                      But, reality is a brutish, simple kind of thing, isn't it?
                      And I have always been more impressed as adult with the people that managed to grow the crops the knights and samurai ate than the people who probably stole the fruits of the farmers labor, and the sons and daughters of the farmers, by brute force or the threat of brute force.
                      When you look back at how the Samurai were said to have treated the common folk, they seem to be a bunch of serious assholes.
                      I am not sure they are worthy of respect from that perspective.
                      I don't have any particular high regard for "samurai", or really, any regard at all.

                      They were mostly back stabbing, arrogant, greedy bastards as far as I can tell.

                      Feudalism sucks unless you are king, no matter how you slice it.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by BKR View Post
                        no matter how you slice it.
                        Pun??

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
                          Pun??
                          I inherited Pun's Syndrome from my Mom...

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I'm all for raising my son with a "classical" education (more books and history and mythology, less videogames and electronic toys), but man, growing up without my Star Wars and Cobra figures or my Daredevil comics, or no Street Fighter or Samurai Shodown? That would have sucked.

                            But if I remember all my Stephen Turnbull books, more or less, the Samurai started off mostly mounted archers and using naginata and longer tachi, then eventually moved more toward infantry, lighter armor, regular katana, and with the rifle and long spear replacing the bow and naginata. But most of the people actually fighting were very lightly-armored ashigaru, and all the really cool suits of armor you see were just field commander watching from a distance.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by kendamu View Post


                              Saw this on Facebook awhile back. I reuploaded it to YouTube to have a place where I could consistently find it. Had to change the music because copyright garbage.

                              What starts out looking like a historical reenactment starts to get pretty rad around :22 with the spear fighting that turns into... Knife Judo?

                              You get more Knife Judo at :35. You also get a pretty rad spear to the face at :54 followed up by one more bit of Knife Judo at 1:00. I don't think that mount would work on anyone in my BJJ class, but I've never done Knife Judo in Samurai Armor so maybe I'm just full of shit.

                              In any case, I'd have probably stuck with my Koryu training for more than a month if we got to do that sort of stuff.
                              That's so much cooler than the Civil War reenactments only historians and racists do in the US.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by BKR View Post
                                I don't have any particular high regard for "samurai", or really, any regard at all.

                                They were mostly back stabbing, arrogant, greedy bastards as far as I can tell.

                                Feudalism sucks unless you are king, no matter how you slice it.

                                Comment

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